I have found out from Pippi, via Sparkle*Matrix that that the pro-porn group Feminists Against Censorship now has a blog, and, shockingly, that they link to the porn-apologist site MelonFarmers. At the risk of crushing FAC’s free speech with my awesome power to censor others, I’m going to consider what this means.
Here is the mission statement of the group, as seen on the Feminists Against Censorship homepage, with my sarcy comments:
The media may have given you the impression that feminists support moves to censor sexual media, so you might be surprised to know just how many feminists out there have been actively opposing such censorship since long before there was an Internet. And we still do.
The media may have given you that impression, because it is in the media’s interest to do so. What they will not have told you, and what FAC are never going to tell you, is that the feminist position against porn is a stance firmly against the abuse of women and children that occurs in the making of porn. If there is a market for the abuse, then the abuse will continue. And we hold that the rights of vulnerable human beings to not be exploited and abused are greater than the rights of the viewer to get off on the subordination of women. Oh and while I’m here, saying you’re a feminist doesn’t make it so. There is very little on the website that even refers to women, let alone suggests that FAC is concerned with their lives.
Scare stories about the alleged new dangers of the Internet haven’t changed our minds. We still see the same dangers in censorship that we always have, and the “new” arguments really seem remarkably familiar. The equation is simple: Those who have power get to censor, and those who lack power get silenced. If you find yourself in a position to demand and get censorship, you can be sure you are among those who have the power, and you are acting to oppress others.
And who are the people who are most censored currently? I’ll give you a clue, they’re not the consumers of pornography, who are predominantly male and thus possess significant economic and social power over women. The suffering of women in the making of pornography and in the prostitution industry is so censored that in a discussion of porn, people will look straight through the women in the pictures and in the brothels. Their human rights not to be in such a position of poverty or servitude are never brought up. Instead we hear about the rights of the consumers of porn- who are the privileged.
Yes, supporting freedom of speech means you may have to hear and see expression that you don’t like. But if you cave in to censorship, you will still hear expression you don’t like – from the Powers That Be – and be left without a voice to counter it. Don’t be fooled.
Pornography is not speech. Speech is what I’m doing right now, or what the people in the conversation about pornstitution are doing, or what the guy on the street who shouts about Jesus is doing. Once you have to use the bodies of other people to speak, it is not speech. I’ve said all this before, of course. The people demanding the end of pornography and the end of sexist exploitation are not The Powers That Be. If only we were! Just to make sure, I’m going to censor the abuse of women, right… now!
Nope, it didn’t work.
These pages will tell you more about Feminists Against Censorship and other groups that are fighting for free expression, both on the net and off it, from bookstores to libraries, in Britain and America. Follow the links to essays, announcements, campaigns, history, resources, and others who wish to promote the right to speak freely. And join us.
‘Promoting the right to speak freely’ is great. But from the content of FAC’s website, the names of their various publications and their outcry about the possession of records of abuse being made illegal, it seems that that freedom belongs only to the pornographers.
FAC’s site strikes me as strange in other ways. Despite the assertion that most feminists are on their side, there are very few names of feminists mentioned, and certainly none of feminists only giving their support to the organisation. Of course, if FAC are justified in their arguments against ‘censorship’, then it really shouldn’t matter; if you have truth on your side, that’s all you need. But the special pleading evident in FAC’s insistence that ‘other feminists’ do support them, combined with their failure to show proof of that support, suggests that they are feeling rather insecure.
Another red flag waving itself rather rudely in my face appears here, where the website states that ‘Feminists Against Censorship is unfunded by any government, church, or industry, unlike our opposition’ and that ‘we don’t have funding’. Who is the opposition? If they refer to the ‘bad’ feminists, then they’re both wrong and stupid- we don’t have squat. And the porn industry is not exactly short of cash, publicity or the means to promote and defend itself.
Who do they think they are fooling?
Back to the MoronFarmers. One of their latest attempts as journalism has them scoffing at Eaves, the organisation that provides shelter and hope to women on a low income, to victims of rape trafficking and has done extensive research on sexual violence, for protesting Channel Five’s newest ’sitcom’ which is set in a brothel. Eaves objects to the portrayal of prostitution as ‘glamorous’ and ‘risk-free’. For this, the Morons label Eaves as a ‘women’s nutter group’.
Firstly, who would know more about the damage a sitcom about prostitution could do, Eaves or MelonFarmers? I think the answer is pretty clear, and MelonFarmers do not even attempt to argue against Eaves’ views. And secondly, what sort of a website that is interested in preventing censorship would refer to a group that has done amazing work for the most powerless and silenced women as a ‘women’s nutter group’, simply because that group took a stance that website disagreed with?
And FAC, you link to these guys?! Show me your feminism, ’cause I aint seeing it.
Laurelin; 100% correct!
We must also add for those who are unaware, that the MoronFarmers (I love your word!) and their supporters have been trolling and bullying the (anti-porn) radfem blogs in this circuit. And it’s getting very nasty indeed.
Any so-called ‘feminist’ that gets ‘into bed’ with this lot, isn’t a feminist, as she is supporting the harassment and abuse of her sisters (other feminists). Therefore, you CANNOT be a feminist – full stop.
It is NOT prudish to be anti-porn, as Army says; it’s just plain common sense. The abuse and coercion of the women involved in the pornstitution industry is evident, and no self respecting feminist can ever be pro-porn. To be pro-porn is to be a puppet of patriarchy (FAC ‘feminists’; patriarchy is what you are fighting against… remember?).
About censorship – we as a society sanction certain areas of censorship for the good of all – eg child pornography and racist material. To be against censorship, is to be FOR this material as well.
And FAC, if porn is so great, why not prove it by getting your kit off and doing a LM spread? I’m sure that Loaded’s Casting Couch can’t wait to exploit you.
FAC ‘feminists’ – take a long hard look in the mirror, and FFS, stop calling yourselves feminists; you ain‘t in my club.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 5, 2006 @ 12:05 pm
[...] Laurelin in the Rain [...]
Pingback by sonitus.org » Blog Archive » A marriage made in heaven — September 5, 2006 @ 2:21 pm
It doesn’t benefit anyone for FAC to call themselves “feminists”, but I don’t even understand how it benefits them. There must be a reason. Don’t geddit.
Comment by jo — September 5, 2006 @ 3:05 pm
Calling themselves feminists serves to divide feminists. When we object to porn, anybody arguing against us can point to FAC and tell us we don’t speak for all feminists. The whole argument gets bogged down.
It’s incredible that they link to a bunch of misogynistic twits like MelonFarmers, they’ve got some very weird ideas of what feminism is. Then again it appears that their agenda is to thwart whatever feminists try to achieve on behalf of women so I guess it isn’t so odd.
Comment by delphyne — September 5, 2006 @ 11:18 pm
Uh oh, I think you just linked to FAC.
Comment by Phemisaurus Terribilis — September 6, 2006 @ 1:10 am
Only in the interests of people knowing what I’m talking about, Phemi. But I guess a charge of hypocrisy could be levelled at me for this…
Comment by Laurelin — September 6, 2006 @ 6:51 am
Well said, delphyne.
(I was coming back to answer jo, but you beat me to it!)
Apart from the infiltraitors (sic) co-opting and corrupting the term (and aims) of feminism (delphne has outlined the main agenda of smokescreen); there are some women, who think they are feminists who are pro-pornstitution.
They are clearly deluded, esp when aligning themselves with such obvious anti-woman groups such as the moronfarmers. They are also deluded when they think that female *empowerment* is achieved by cavorting around a pole or getting one’s kit off – because (and I don’t attack the women unfortunately involved in the sex industry to survive, but those who vocally promote the industry on ‘behalf of women‘) – these activities are the methods of all women’s oppression, even the ones not participating.
Again on censorship, it is women’s voices that are censored – particularly in pornography, where she endures degrading acts and either smiles or says ‘she likes it’. That is propaganda against women, all women everywhere. It perverts men’s views about women’s worth, how women like to be treated, and desensitises men to women’s pain. How many rape victims fight back and scream ‘NO!’ ? Lots, but in the script of porn, no means ‘I like it rough’ or ‘I need more convincing’. The implication for the millions of women raped worldwide every year is evident.
Women’s voices are also censored in the general media. The general media (and also porn) are very much male-dominated arenas. The media (and porn) have had no real censorship – but the FAC and moronfarmers are creating a smokescreen to protect the (multi-billion-dollar) interests of pornographers. This smokescreen consists of ‘keep the government out of the bedroom’ and ‘big brother is controlling our lives’ scare tactics. In the general media, only a small percentage of true feminist views get published, they (feminists) are the ones censored. So to the FAC or any other ‘feminist’ against censorship, it is the censorship of feminists and women you should be fighting against, not fatcat pornographers.
We should strongly redefine Feminism. Any ‘feminist’ with pro-porn views cannot be a feminist. This so-called division of pro- and anti-porn feminists cannot co-exist under the one banner of Feminism, it diffuses us, and diverts us from attacking the methods of our oppression. Any so-called pro-porn ‘feminist’ if you are reading this post, then now go on to read the Den of the Biting Beaver archives, Diana Russell, Robert Jensen, and of course, Andrea Dworkin and Catherine McKinnon. There are of course, many more I could add to this list.
I guess I am saying, there is no such thing as a pro-pornstitution feminist, it is an oxymoron.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 6, 2006 @ 10:47 am
Sorry Laurelin, the humour misfired. What I meant is that if they find your blog they will troll it and that wouldn’t be very nice.
Comment by Phemisaurus Terribilis — September 6, 2006 @ 11:58 am
Hey Stormy,
I have a bone to pick with you. Waddayamean ‘pro-pornstitution feminist’ is an oxymoron!!! That’s like saying vegans can’t eat meat, or like pacifists can’t go to war, or, or, or…
Comment by Phemisaurus Terribilis — September 6, 2006 @ 12:01 pm
Do you think we should pop over to their blog and have a word with them about this? Politely of course.
Comment by delphyne — September 6, 2006 @ 12:29 pm
Phemi; *grin*
Actually, because of the recent infiltraitoring (sic) of a private group by a pro-porner, it did get me seriously thinking about the whole pro/anti business (among feminists), and that was the conclusion I reached – that of extreme intolerance. The same episode is how this post by Laurelin came about. We believe said infiltraitor was also sabotaging activism efforts, and possibly reporting dutifully back to ‘her’ bestest buds the moronfarmers. Doesn’t sound terribly sisterly to me, and certainly clarified that ‘pro-porn feminists’ just aren’t feminists at all, they are the puppets of their penis-wearing masters.
delphyne… suggesting some reverse trolling perhaps??? (*grin*)
Quite frankly, trolling just shows a position of weakness and insecurity. I’ll leave the trolling to those who are pathetic – that would be the pro-porners (as if you hadn’t guessed).
Comment by Stormcloud — September 6, 2006 @ 7:12 pm
(Warning, sex-positive/anti-censorship feminist who genuinely thinks she’s a feminist and is willing to argue about it, not a troll)
I think FAC made a mistake linking to MelonFarmers, but linking from a website doesn’t necessarily imply full support. If I were them I’d take it down, but I don’t think it damns them as not feminist. I also think this is a little disingenuous;
What they will not have told you, and what FAC are never going to tell you, is that the feminist position against porn is a stance firmly against the abuse of women and children that occurs in the making of porn
Many anti-censorship feminists, myself including and no doubt some feminists involved with FAC, can plainly see and do state that feminists on the opposite side of the fence are not necessarily motivated by evil urges to ban and censor and such. I’m perfectly happy to state that these feminists I disagree with are probably motivated by the same feelings of anger and disgust that get me going politically – I just think the way they express it is wrong (and dangerous). The (anti-porn) feminist position *is*, I’m sure, a stance against abuse of women and children – it’s a stance that takes a gung-ho attitude to political freedoms, but I don’t dispute that bottom line.
I don’t want to rehash the old arguments about freedom of speech (I’m saving that for replying to Object on my blog) but I’d be a little careful about how you define speech – you say porn isn’t speech, should all images, still or moving, not be protected under the same right to free expression? Or is it the sex that makes it not come under free expression? Or the reactionary political messages?
Once again, not trying to troll.
Sofie B
Comment by Sofie — September 6, 2006 @ 10:07 pm
I know you’re not trying to troll, Sofie, you’re always welcome here.
Comment by Laurelin — September 6, 2006 @ 10:31 pm
Not really trolling, StormCloud. I don’t think it would be a good idea for us to go and argue at an individual’s blog, but this is a group saying they represent feminists’ and women’s interests, yet they are working together with a bunch of misogynists. Maybe it’s worth trying to dialogue with them about this.
Then again, it might just give them the attention they crave.
Comment by delphyne — September 7, 2006 @ 12:43 am
i left a message there a day or so ago but it hasnt shown up yet. i’m thinking they just haven’t got round to it, because they don’t believe in censorship, do they.
Comment by v — September 7, 2006 @ 9:23 am
Sophie:
“Warning, sex-positive/anti-censorship feminist..”
You imply that anti-porn feminists are ’sex-negative’. Or is your implication that of (you) being porn-positive, because sex and porn are NOT the same thing.
“I think FAC made a mistake linking to MelonFarmers, but linking from a website doesn’t necessarily imply full support.”
It wasn’t just their website link.
“I just think the way they express it is wrong (and dangerous).”
A proven fact, ‘nice’ feminism doesn’t work. Hence, Stormy ceased being ‘nice’.
“you say porn isn’t speech … Or is it the sex that makes it not come under free expression? Or the reactionary political messages?”
Again, porn and sex are NOT one and the same. Apart from the coercion and abuse involved in the making of much pornography, it is the power dynamics reinforcing women’s subservient position (and just before you jump in with the “but the dominatrix..” thing, there is a safe word for the male (so it is still he in control), but not for the female in ‘normal’ het porn). Then there are the lies told in porn about women’s sexuality, how in degrading porn the women ‘like it’ and like everything done to them, and want it at all times (etc). Porn also desensitises men to women’s real feelings, and lowers their inhibitions to rape (see Russell et al).
If you are talking about depictions of sex under threat of censorship, perhaps you are talking about erotica and/or lesbian films. I have said before (on another blog) that I don’t think I have ever seen true erotica (that has not been in some way either degrading to one participant, nor egalitarian). Lesbian films too have been influenced by mainstream het porn (see Jeffreys).
If you are anti-censorship, and claim to be a feminist, then you should be concentrating your efforts on how mainstream media and politics effectively silences women – and NOT be supporting the multi-billion dollar pornstitution industry. I am anti-censorship in this respect. To align yourself pro-porn is to ally yourself with one of the most pervasive methods of women’s oppression in this society.
If you think yourself feminist, then familiarise yourself with all the archives over at the Den of the Biting Beaver. Also visit Diana Russell’s site. And a nice chunky book is Catherine Itzin’s (editor) “Pornography – women violence and civil liberties, a radical new view” 1992. After you have read all that, you will either be a feminist (anti-porn), or not a feminist (but a patriarchical tool).
Some disclosure here, in my 20s I was ‘porn-neutral’. In the 80s porn was no where near as degrading and violent as it is today. Also, I believed in the principle of freedom of choice – so if other women ‘chose’ to be in porn or prostitutes, then that was their choice. However, it became clear that this ‘choice’ was not a free one, and many women became involved in the sex industry for economic survival, or were physically coerced into the industry. That is not choice. That is the reason I became anti-pornstitution. And, I really hate to have to qualify myself this way, I am not a prude.
If you really need another reason to become anti-porn (and you shouldn’t!), then try this one, my new placard “Reduce your prowess as a lover – watch a lot of porn”, because there has been a marked decline in men’s sexual performance over the last 30 years, inverse to the increase in porn.
I really can be ‘nice’, sometimes…
…but not often.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 7, 2006 @ 9:50 am
hey, i’m a semi-regular on feminism international, and i just have to thank you for your blog. it is an amazing resorce, and i am sure i will have hours of learning while scrolling down the sidebar. pornstitution is an area i have a certain level of… ignorance? uncomittedness? about. but i have to say, i have never read a pro-porn argment that is as clear as the anti-porn.
thanks for your blog
veritas (elizabeth)
Comment by veritas — September 7, 2006 @ 10:20 am
I don’t even have to go there to know what it’s all about. It’s an orchestrated movement that’s coming out of the marketing deptartments/boardrooms of the major media who now own porn production.
My thinking is don’t waste your energy on engaging with them. That’s exactly what they want, your energy, your focus on THEM, not the issue. They will have had a stretgic plan drawn up which includes just this from us. It’s been plotted. Any engagement between us and them is just more grist for their public relations mill. No matter what we do, it translates as an increase in sales for them.
You learn this fast in media; any news is good news for the bottom line. $$$
I’m not saying don’t work it through on YOUR blog. Just ignore them. Every hit to their sitemetres is $$.
Comment by Pony — September 7, 2006 @ 2:56 pm
Pony,
You are spot on. Engaging with groups such as FAC is a waste of time. Every minute spent on discussing whether or not pornstitution is OK is a minute less spend on actually doing something about it.
There is an entry above from someone reassuring us they’re not a troll, yet they’re demanding our time and energy.
If only feminist bloggers would stop indulging pro-pornstitution proponents they would free themselves up to write about HOW to liberate women – not WHETHER to liberate women.
Comment by Nieves — September 8, 2006 @ 8:07 am
Pony & Nieves:
I do agree that ‘engaging’ these people is a waste of time, as is feeding the trolls. However, the point of Laurelin’s post was to expose a so-called feminist group and their alliance with misogynist pro-pornstitutioners.
There are a few, primarily young/new feminists out there that have not learnt all they need to know about the mechanisms of patriarchy, and who are still very much on a learning curve. It is important not to alienate them.
The new/young feminists whatever their sexual orientation, don’t quite grasp why radfems are anti-porn, and have much confusion regarding censorship, sex, and porn.
I took Sofie as sounding genuine, and therefore had an uncharacteristic moment of niceness. It is not always apparent, with one posting, to tell if someone is trolling or merely a bit misguided in some areas. Although, statements such as “I’m not a troll” or “I’m not trolling” frequently do indicate a troll. However, if subsequent postings indicate no acknowledgement of the evidence put across, or become off-topic, bogged down in semantics, etc, then that poster is indeed a troll.
I am saying that we shouldn’t be too exclusionary or reactionary at all times (just sometimes!); and to encourage, guide and mentor new feminists. But if they don’t learn, then by all means, call them the mouthpieces and puppets of Patriarchy that they truly are.
‘Nuff niceness now, Stormy resuming usual mode!
*click*
Comment by Stormcloud — September 8, 2006 @ 12:09 pm
My main idea in writing this post was, as Stormy says, to put down my suspicions about FAC on my blog. They concern me because of the reasons I mentioned above, and I think we ought to keep an eye on them, particularly in terms of the message they send out about women and about feminism.
I have a great deal of respect for Sofie, as she always presents her arguments politely and honestly. I completely disagree with her on the issue of sex work and pornography, however.
I’m always very uneasy about calling other women mouthpieces of the patriarchy etc., as I would hate to see us slip into womanblaming when women are simply not the ones responsible for sexual abuse.
Basically, I’m happy to talk to any sex-pos feminists who are willing to engage me respectfully. But I’m not willing to be dragged into an argument about the minority of women who want to be in the sex industry, or about semantics etc. I certainly am not going to tolerate the abuse I have observed on other sites, by certain sex-pos feminists who have shown only hostility.
I tend to argue things on my own turf rather than other people’s. My blog is meant to be a safe space for me, and especially for my radical feminist sisters.
Comment by Laurelin — September 8, 2006 @ 12:42 pm
If I was handling one of these groups of people, as I well could be in another context because I work in communications and that is part of what I have been offered but have refused, they would have been meticulously veted to be well-spoken, educated, be unfailingly polite, trained to be so and monitored as being so, or out the door.
It’s a job. They’re working. Don’t grant them goodness.
Comment by Pony — September 8, 2006 @ 3:21 pm
I don’t plan on talking nice with FAC, don’t worry Pony!
My goodwill has to be earned.
Comment by Laurelin — September 8, 2006 @ 3:23 pm
Adding:
Polite is what people pushing an undesirable product are required to be. It takes us off guard, we look bad if we don’t respond well to nice. However, for lessons in how to handle murderous intent (of spirit but also in the context of porn, actual murder) masked in polite, read Heart. There is a particular post, some months ago which I can id only by naming the person, but generally, she does it very well, throughout.
Again, they know they must be polite. Otherwise they would not be able to stay here and propagate their message. When they are allowed to stay they are given a venue for their message. There is very little incentive for them to stay on their blogs, which delivers their message primarily only to the believers. They are always speaking to the reader, not to you. Their first job is to keep you engaging them.
The American public (especially) has been snowed completely by the outer message. They have completely loss their critical faculties and ability to suss out a bullshitter as long as the bullshit is clothed well, speaks well, and is polite. The world of advertising knows it, tv programmers and producers know it, even pedophiles know it, and pornsitutionists do too, not because they’ve got the brains to know it, but because the veneer is being applied by their handlers, Time-Warner et al.
We’re not in Kansas anymore Laurelin.
Comment by Pony — September 8, 2006 @ 3:57 pm
Thanks for the advice, Pony. Appreciated.
Comment by Laurelin — September 8, 2006 @ 4:21 pm
I too write for the reader.
Comment by Pony — September 8, 2006 @ 4:40 pm
P.S. Were you aware that Pippi is going?
Comment by Pony — September 8, 2006 @ 4:53 pm
“Basically, I’m happy to talk to any sex-pos feminists who are willing to engage me respectfully.”
Laurelin, may I respectfully make a clarification here? It’s not ’sex-pos’, because most radfems are ’sex-pos’ – it is PRO-PORNSTITUTION, under the guise of anti-censorship. I previously made my point about which part of censorship that ‘feminists’ should be focusing on, and it wasn’t the multi-billion dollar porn industry (as pony says, TW are in on it too).
‘Feminists’: they DON’T need your help, they ARE the ones in power with the money, and the establishment (in a sense).
“I’m always very uneasy about calling other women mouthpieces of the patriarchy etc., as I would hate to see us slip into womanblaming when women are simply not the ones responsible for sexual abuse.”
Again, respectfully disagree. If they won’t read and learn (from feminist texts), they are believing the ‘censorship’ propaganda from patriarchy. They are collaborators, and more than that, they ARE actively promoting the tools of patriarchical oppression. I will always reserve the right to go on the attack on the MOPs, especially the ones that dare call themselves feminists.
That serves only to confuse and cloud the issues, feminists and non-feminists alike.
And, I was ‘nice’ to Sofie, not necessarily because she was polite, but I recognised that she had the potential to see the reality, as she was part way there on some points.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 8, 2006 @ 6:29 pm
A further clarification on non-womanblaming, no, I certainly don’t blame the women trapped in pornstitution, or ones that don’t know any better.
But ALL feminists do or SHOULD know better.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 8, 2006 @ 6:32 pm
Eek, I dunno about “nice” but definitel hella patronising!
Just a few things Stormcloud: I’m not “pro-porn” in the sense of in anyway endorsing the reactionary things much of it has to say about women, just because I think banning it is wrong. I use the term sex-positive because that’s how this debate is often framed, and I think to claim porn isn’t sex is basically just wrong – porn is the depiction of people engaged in sex acts, how is that not sex? That’s not all sex is, sex shouldn’t be reduced to what you can see in most mainstream heterosexual porn, but you can’t simply state porn isn’t sex to avoid the problems with banning it, or to draw some imaginary boundary between pornography and erotica.
If you are anti-censorship, and claim to be a feminist, then you should be concentrating your efforts on how mainstream media and politics effectively silences women – and NOT be supporting the multi-billion dollar pornstitution industry.
Isn’t it possible to do both? To be politically opposed to censorship of media and also campaign against the sexist messages often present in those media?
Comment by Sofie — September 8, 2006 @ 7:23 pm
Isn’t it possible to do both? To be politically opposed to censorship of media and also campaign against the sexist messages often present in those media?
Yes!! Thankyou, Sofie. x
Comment by alyx — September 9, 2006 @ 12:30 am
Sorry, have to add:
…because that’s how this debate is often framed
I hate how these debates are often framed, and I’m sure many other feminists do too—“Anti-porn”= “Pro-censorship”; “Anti-Censorship”= “Pro-porn.” That seems to be the general consensus, when the reality couldn’t be further from the truth: What about feminists who are anti-porn but opposed to censorship? I may think censoring media is idiotic, but I’d certainly feel alienated in a community like FAC, where my membership would probably be less dependent on an opposition to censorship and more about gangpiling radical feminist authors and caricaturing them as sex-negative prudes.
The truth is that there are many more feminist positions than simply ‘anti-porn’ and ‘sex pos.’ There are ‘sex pos’ feminists who are anti-censorship, and there are radical feminists who are anti-censorship. There are radical feminists who identify as ‘sex positive’, and sex positive feminists who have been influenced by feminist radicalism. And there are many feminists whose beliefs defy easy binary categorisation (and I’d include myself here.)
So rather than supporting efforts to censor media, I think we should promote better media *education*, and where porn and prostitution are concerned, focus on helping the many women who want out to *get out*, rather than falling into the old ‘ban it or burn it’ ideological trap. Banning stuff does nothing to help women trapped in systems of exploitation. And we also need to bring a bit more complexity to the way we think about these issues, because terms like ‘sex pos’ and ‘radfem’ fail to capture the variety of ideological positions in between.
Ok, I’ve hogged the soapbox long enough. Cheers Laurelin, girls.
Comment by alyx — September 9, 2006 @ 1:16 am
Yikes! Is this what a bunch of feminists falling over themselves to show their tolerance looks like? Sure ain’t a pretty sight.
Comment by Phemisaurus Terribilis — September 9, 2006 @ 7:51 am
Is this what a bunch of feminists falling over themselves to show their tolerance looks like?
Nope. Just one feminist who tires of black-and-white thinking.
Not too keen on hearing the views I hold in earnest get mistaken for an “anything goes” ethic, either.
The fact that I have friends who identify as sex positive doesn’t lessen my commitment to ending prostitution. And it doesn’t detract from the fact that many feminists don’t slide so neatly into two distinct categories. If you think acknowledging feminist ambivalence is the same as indiscriminate acceptance of anything labelled ‘feminist’, hey, fair enough. I respectfully disagree.
Sure ain’t a pretty sight.
There’s nothing pretty about me. :0)
Comment by alyx — September 9, 2006 @ 9:13 am
Tolerance is not something I’m accused of very often, Phemi!
Comment by Laurelin — September 9, 2006 @ 12:33 pm
“Banning stuff does nothing to help women trapped in systems of exploitation.”
Are you sure about that Alyx? If pornographers are unable to make porn and make a profit, what motivation will they have to continue their exploitation of women? Certainly banning the purchase of sex, as in Sweden, has helped women trapped in those situations.
I’m not sure what side I come down on with regards to censorship, I used to be anti-censorship but now I’m thinking that feminists freeze at the mere accusation and I’m wondering if that does our cause harm.
Comment by delphyne — September 9, 2006 @ 12:50 pm
“Banning stuff does nothing to help women trapped in systems of exploitation.”
Of this statement Alyx, I am in partial agreement, that ‘banning stuff’ is NOT the TOTAL solution, but it is certainly in part. However, you live in Perth, not in PornFestUK, where just about any store one walks into contains shelves upon shelves of objectified women in porn and LMs.
The big problem with the FAC and its supporters is that they are actively opposing the proposed law to make possession of violent porn an offence. They also link to and promote directly, the MoronFarmers, who are vehemently anti-feminist, and card-carrying misogynists.
The FAC’s strong ties with MF is questionable at best, at worst, they are actively working to promote factions that want more porn everywhere. Why help the ‘winning’ team with loads of dosh? Why not concentrate women’s/feminist causes rather than general political ideologies? To fight on the side of ‘anti-censorship’ (which is only trotted out when one element of porn is under threat) is promoting the censorship of women, as the speech of women is falsified in porn (in effect, censored).
When I was in my 20s, I was in the shades of grey, *skipping merrily along, lah, lah, lah* camp. Not any more. I’m now old, grouchy, intollerent, and ‘black and white’ – you’re either on the team, or you’re playing for the other side.
And, anyone that calls themselves anti-censorship has to approve of kiddie p0rn, because, after all, that HAS been censored. I can see no difference between stopping child rapists getting their jollies, and male supremacists getting off to the degradation of women.
Porn is as much to do with sex, as is rape. The ’sex’ is a side dish, NOT the main course.
Porn is NOT erotica. But it is extremely difficult (impossible?) to have erotica untainted by the stench of a porn climate. Sadly, it may be a case of ‘baby out with the bathwater’, but last time I checked, sexual arousal was not on the list of essential human functions. (To clarify, no, I don’t want erotica banned)
Besides all of that, I am thoroughly sick of being reminded, in every shop (including my supermarket) that I walk into, what men think of women, that women are sexbots for male pleasure, that women are objects and not people, that women are ‘other’, and if that means I am anti-’anti-censorship’, so be it. Bring it on.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 9, 2006 @ 2:41 pm
Child porn is different because child porn cannot be made without abuse – children cannot consent to sex. I believe it’s possible to create adult pornography that is neither exploitative nor sexist, and your shifting of the porn/erotica distinction to make porn mean “sexist sexual representations of women” is disingenuous.
Besides all of that, I am thoroughly sick of being reminded, in every shop (including my supermarket) that I walk into, what men think of women, that women are sexbots for male pleasure, that women are objects and not people
Me too. But I’m more interested in combatting the structures and attitudes that create a demand for sexist sexual representation of women than I am about simply removing it from view by having it banned. I’m not willing to gamble my political freedoms to whitewash mainstream media without achieving anything.
Comment by Sofie — September 9, 2006 @ 7:41 pm
whatever Sofie, whatever…
Comment by Stormcloud — September 9, 2006 @ 8:19 pm
Come on, that’s not a comeback
Comment by Sofie — September 9, 2006 @ 8:54 pm
Stormcloud you will never teach pornstitutionists that women are human.
You also have no idea who this person is. Just an addy. You’re probably arguing with a man, but if you aren’t and this is indeed a woman, double the reason to just walk away.
Comment by Pony — September 9, 2006 @ 9:28 pm
Thanks Pony, that’s what I decided to do.
I also want to point out a mistake I made earlier on:
“…but I recognised that she had the potential to see the reality.”
S/he cannot even see the difference between porn and erotica.
In my book it’s: Three strikes – you’re out.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 9, 2006 @ 10:29 pm
What’s with the desire to shut down debate? Are you really that disinterested in your own politics that you won’t defend them or discuss them?
It’s like there are rules for who’s nice enough to talk to and who isn’t, like it’s ok to cast aspersions on the gender of people who disagree with you, like there are good women and bad women, and bad women are probably men or “pornstitutionists”, whatever that means. And all those things smack of the playground rather than adult political debate.
Where’s the safe space for women who disagree?
Comment by Sofie — September 9, 2006 @ 11:15 pm
A few more points;
On what “porn” means, and the distinction between porn and erotica, it seems like the radical feminist view often defines pornography as “sexually explicit material that degrades women and is sexist” and erotica as “sexually explicit material that doesn’t”. From my view, pornography is material intended to cause sexual arousal in the viewer/reader. This misunderstanding might be the basis for disagreement – when I write about “porn” I might not mean the same thing as you. There is no accepted definition of “porn” v. “erotica” so we should give each other a little lee-way.
On who I am, I took a decision years ago to be honest about my online persona – it’s the same as who I am in real life. My name’s Sofie Buckland, there’s more about me on my site – volsunga.co.uk, including that I work for NUS, a fact verifiable by visiting my NUS blog at officeronline.co.uk/blogs/sofiebuckland. Pictures and everything. Not a man, not a troll, not an anti-feminist
Comment by Sofie — September 9, 2006 @ 11:21 pm
Like Andrea Dworkin said, somehow sex shop owners know not to stock Ulysses. The porn versus erotica debate is a red herring, it’s just pro-porn feminists who seem to have so much of a struggle over what the terminology means. If you are using the word porn to describe non-porn, Sofie, then you are being disingenuous and deliberately disrupting the debate. Your personal dictionary does not define the terms in use. I suggest you start your research into what porn actually is here -
http://www.avn.com/
And here’s their list of the current top 20 porn videos in the US -
1 Briana Loves Rocco Vivid Entertainment Group
2 Jesse Jane: Sexual Freak Digital Playground
3 Back 2 Evil 2 Nacho Vidal/Evil Angel
4 Barely Legal Schoolgirls Hustler Video
5 College Invasion 9 Shane’s World Studios
6 No Warning 2 Belladonna/Evil Angel
7 Taken Wicked Pictures
8 Interactive Sex With Courtney Cummz Zero Tolerance Entertainment
9 Ass Worship 9 Jules Jordan Video
10 Make Me Creamy 2 Vouyer Media
11 New Chicks Cum First Red Light District
12 New Whores on the Block Manuel Ferrara/Evil Angel
13 1 Dick 2 Chicks 5 Red Light District
14 T for Tushy Seymore Butts/Pure Play Media
15 Teradise Island Teravision/Vivid Entertainment Group
16 Teenage Jizz Junkies 3 Zero Tolerance Entertainment
17 Rocco’s Dirty Dreams 3 Rocco Siffredi/Evil Angel
18 My Plaything: Amy Ried Digital Sin
19 Fade to Black 2 Vivid Entertainment Group
20 Black Owned Jules Jordan Video
In addition, you could try typing every sexual word you can think of into Google. That should give you a pretty good idea of what is being discussed.
Comment by delphyne — September 10, 2006 @ 12:44 am
Heterosexual porn is overwhelmingly sexist. That doesn’t define how porn always has to be, what all porn is, or that porn = sexist material.
Merriam-Webster (don’t have an Oxford, sorry) – material that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement.
Comment by Sofie — September 10, 2006 @ 12:53 am
The word pornography comes from the Greek meaning “writing about whores”, it has nothing to do with the erotic. There is nothing erotic about one person being paid to pretend to enjoy themselves.
I could look up the definition of the word “horse” in the dictionary, but it wouldn’t tell me much about the animal. I’d be better off going and reading some books about the creatures or actually seeing some in the field. Direct experience is usually a better bet when it comes to researching something.
Do come back and tell us how you got on at Adult Video News.
Comment by delphyne — September 10, 2006 @ 1:03 am
Don’t assume I don’t have any experience just because I disagree with you.
Comment by Sofie — September 10, 2006 @ 1:12 am
delphyne:
…”it’s just pro-porn feminists who seem to have so much of a struggle over what the terminology means. If you are using the word porn to describe non-porn, Sofie, then you are being disingenuous and deliberately disrupting the debate.”
Thank you. Exactly what I was thinking.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 10, 2006 @ 9:08 am
Using the dictionary definition of the word “pornography”, and the definition I’ve encountered pretty much everywhere else, as a social sciences student and elsewhere, is deliberately disrupting debate?
Jeez, you guys are so quick to ascribe negative motivations to people who disagree with you, you do your political position no favours at all.
Comment by Sofie — September 10, 2006 @ 9:56 am
Thanks again delphyne for:
“The word pornography comes from the Greek meaning “writing about whores”, it has nothing to do with the erotic.”
On the subject of ’subtle’ differences, I have often noticed that trolls love to ‘debate’, where as feminists choose to ‘discuss’.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 10, 2006 @ 10:37 am
“Using the dictionary definition of the word “pornography”, and the definition I’ve encountered pretty much everywhere else, as a social sciences student and elsewhere, is deliberately disrupting debate?”
Being purposefuly obtuse when it is very clear what porn is, is deliberately disrupting the debate. Porn users know what porn is, they know what to buy or look for on the internet; porn producers know what porn is, they know what to make; feminists who are fighting porn know what porn is, we know what is damaging women – as I said, the only people who seem to have a huge problem here are pro-porn feminists who prefer to create their own definition and then try and argue it on those terms.
This is feminism, we don’t need to use patriarchal non-definitions from dictionaries or academic studies (both sites of male supremacy) that do nothing to reflect the reality of women’s oppression or give us the tools to end that oppression. Men will try and cloud the discussion on porn with their non-terms, it’s up to you if you choose to go along with it.
“Jeez, you guys are so quick to ascribe negative motivations to people who disagree with you, you do your political position no favours at all.”
How many times do you think we’ve seen your tactic Sofie? How many times do you think a discusssion about porn hasn’t even been able to get off the ground because the pro-porn side stubbornly refused to address the reality of porn and kept insisting that their non-definition is what is reality. So if you want to talk about doing your political position no favours you should look to yourself, because I’ve found a lot of pro-porn arguments dishonest including the one you are using here. At least admit to what it is you are supporting.
Have you visited the AVN site yet?
Here is another article that is a helpful discussion of what porn is. I urge you to read it -
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/pornography&cruelty.htm
Comment by delphyne — September 10, 2006 @ 11:01 am
the pro-porn side stubbornly refused to address the reality of porn
I think this is verging on the ridiculous now. You’re redefining what porn means, so that when I say “it is possible to produce porn that isn’t sexist” you can say that means I’m “pro-porn”, which from your definition means “supports violence against women”. It’s sophistry.
Seriously, terminology aside (I went to great lengths to spell out how we differ on that above somewhere), my position is that it’s possible to produce sexually explicit material with a view to provoking arousal in the viewer/reader that isn’t sexist. That isn’t denying the “reality of porn” – i.e. that the majority of mainstream, heterosexual sexually explicit material comes with all sorts of appallingly reactionary messages about women, and is often the result of terrible working conditions and even physical and sexual abuse of sex workers, mostly female but often male too. We’re all against this, and it’s a bad faith on your part to assume I’m not.
Comment by Sofie — September 10, 2006 @ 12:21 pm
Me too. But I’m more interested in combatting the structures and attitudes that create a demand for sexist sexual representation of women than I am about simply removing it from view by having it banned. I’m not willing to gamble my political freedoms to whitewash mainstream media without achieving anything.
I thought that was an incredibly sensible comment, personally.
Comment by hexy — September 10, 2006 @ 12:26 pm
“We’re all against this, and it’s a bad faith on your part to assume I’m not.”
If you were against it you wouldn’t be trying to reduce the argument to nit-picking about terminology and you wouldn’t be fighting a ban on violent, sadistic pornography. In other words you would actually be trying to do something about it instead of trying to disrupt the argument and the actions of feminists who want to make real change in the world to benefit women.
Also I’m not redefining what porn means Sofie. You are the one doing that. Like I said it’s a tried and tested tactic. Because of that I don’t actually see any point continuing with this discussion.
Comment by delphyne — September 10, 2006 @ 12:33 pm
Me either, considering you continue to pretend I’m motivated by a desire to disrupt “real” feminism.
Comment by Sofie — September 10, 2006 @ 1:27 pm
*head nod* to delphyne!
I would add something along the lines of, if one was serious about eradicating sexism in porn and the general media, then one should be looking at the vehicles used to propagate the messages of sexism and hatred (and aiding recruitment to those views), and disable those mechanisms (by censorship/control/regulation). The main mechanism of propagation of those views I can think of would be, er, porn? Porn whose influence is readily seen in advertising and popular culture like music videos. Why not go after the source that is feeding and corrupting mainstream media?
And if the stupid troll argument goes to the supply-demand, chicken-egg thing, well, we might just have to eradicate all men instead (if they can’t live without porn). And throw the pro-porn anti-censorship ‘feminists’, the FAC and the MoronFarmers, etc, onto a huge bonfire…
Certainly, that would put an end to sexism in the media.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 10, 2006 @ 1:30 pm
“Me either, considering you continue to pretend I’m motivated by a desire to disrupt “real” feminism.”
No. Read more carefully. I said you were trying to disrupt this particular discussion and the actions of feminists who are working against pornography. At no time did I say you were trying to disrupt “real” (nice scare quotes there) feminism.
More disingenuous tactics from you, distorting what I said. Stop it.
Comment by delphyne — September 10, 2006 @ 1:34 pm
*feigning tearful regret*
bye bye sofie
Comment by Stormcloud — September 10, 2006 @ 1:34 pm
Delphyne’s “(nice scare quotes there)” made me laugh!
Comment by Stormcloud — September 10, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
I just came across this article on the No Status Quo website which seems pertinent to the discussion -
“How Orgasm Politics Has Hijacked the Women’s Movement”
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/Porn/orgasmpol.html
Comment by delphyne — September 10, 2006 @ 1:40 pm
Thanks again delphyne, SJ is fab!
Comment by Stormcloud — September 10, 2006 @ 2:22 pm
No. 57 is interesting – is porn really the font of sexism, influencing mainstream media? I think sexism in porn, advertising, TV, film, women’s magazines etc. stems from sexism in society, from social attitudes being reflected in media which then reinforce those attitudes. Under your view that porn’s sexism leads to sexism in mainstream media (which is, as you state, increasingly taking on the tropes of porn, in terms of imagery etc.) will all media sexism disappear (or dramatically decrease) if porn is banned?
I don’t see the link necessarily between banning porn and challenging sexism. Look at societies, for example theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia, where sexually explicit material, sexist or otherwise is hard to get hold of – women in such countries are hardly free from institutionalised misogyny
Comment by Sofie — September 10, 2006 @ 2:30 pm
I received the following spam this morning (I’ve have removed url and e-mail address)
rape | ********@gmail.com | *********.org | IP: 85.255.118.133
rape storyfree rape clipssexy raperape fuckingrape animalsublime-date rapemale rape storiesviolent femmes kiss offraped kidsrape cases videosmom rapedraped daughterrape sex siteshardcore asian raperaped picturefree gay rape movieshow do tv promote violence ot teenswhy does violence happenstatutory rape wyomingwhy girls get raped
I have reported this to the Internet Watch Foundation who will view the material and decide whether any of the content is illegal in the UK.
If I had clicked on the links for ‘raped dauther’/'raped kids’/’stautory rape’/'girls get raped’ and downloaded and/or viewed any of the material I would have been committing a criminal offence. I hope that this will soon be extended to cover instances where adult women are abused and filmed.
There is no excuse whatsoever for men wanting to view women being brutalised. It is not OK. It is not OK to get turned on by cruelty. It is not OK for our society to sanction organised misogyny and that is what the porn industry is.
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 2:39 pm
[...] Over at Laurelin’s blog I’m trying to debate some anti-porn feminists about their stance. We’ve hit a few brickwalls (including people thinking I’m a bloke again, cheers for that) but the most interesting one beyond the bickering is my use of the term “pornography” compared to theirs. [...]
Pingback by volsunga — September 10, 2006 @ 2:44 pm
Sofie,
Do you think it is OK to sit down and watch a video of a woman being raped? I’m talking about a woman being kept in a room against her will and then raped by several men. Do you think it is OK for men to then sell and watch that rape. It is a simple question. Yes or no?
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 2:51 pm
No, of course it’s not ok for people to produce videos of women being abused, and I’d find it abhorrent that men or women would want to watch them. But banning them won’t challenge these people’s attitudes, and producing them is already illegal – raping women is illegal. On a personal level I’m not sure what I think about the motivations of people who want to watch videos of women and men consensually simulating rape, but I don’t think that should be illegal, and now it’s looking like it’s going to be.
Comment by Sofie — September 10, 2006 @ 2:54 pm
Nieves
That IP is listed as hosted in the Ukrain. The email address is most likely forged, as gmail is part of google, who are based in California.
A handy site for looking up IP numbers is:
http://www.whois-search.com/
(as most searches can only done by name, not the number).
Comment by Stormcloud — September 10, 2006 @ 3:02 pm
Oh FFS: ’simulating rape’ is ok?
sheesh!
Comment by Stormcloud — September 10, 2006 @ 3:04 pm
“Oh FFS: ’simulating rape’ is ok?”
It is unbelievable isn’t it, StormCloud? The worst one I heard recently was from a free speech absolutist in the US (a man who was interviewing Andrea Dworkin) who argued that even if a woman was murdered in a snuff movie although the act itself was illegal, it should still be legal to distribute and watch the film under the auspices of free speech. The same was said about Linda Marciano’s rape in Deep Throat – not OK to rape her, quite OK to watch her being raped. Not just OK but a public good as people would be exercising their right to free speech.
It comes back to bigotry and sexism. If you don’t see women as fully human, you won’t have a problem with these acts.
Comment by delphyne — September 10, 2006 @ 3:11 pm
Sofie. I asked you a very simple question and you did not answer it at all. Instead you answered another question. Once again, is it OK for men to sell and watch the rape of a woman? Do you think it is OK? Are you OK with men selling and watching a tape of a woman who’s been trapped in a room and then raped by several men? Is this OK with you? Yes or no? Simple question. Simple answer.
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 3:12 pm
The thing is Delphyne. It is currently legal to own and view and share videos of women being tortured/raped/murdered. I’m not familiar with police procedures. Perhaps they would seize such tapes as evidence of torture/rape/murder, but they certainly can’t do anything about the person owning/viewing/sharing such tapes. That is where this proposed legislation would come in.
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 3:16 pm
Sofie, what about simulated child abuse? What about child pornography that is computer generated? Or cartoons depicting men penetrating little girls? Or child pornography in the form of litterature?
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 3:23 pm
Where did I say it was “ok”? I said it shouldn’t be illegal to watch consensual simulated rape – some people choose to act out rape scenes, I’m not in favour of banning them. That’s not the same as me saying they’re not reactionary. Let me quote myself in answer to your question (again);
I’d find it abhorrent that men or women would want to watch them (that is, videos of women being hurt against their will)
In order to cover the loophole in the law you’re talking about, the government is proposing also banning the possession of violent pornography that has been produced consensually (i.e. BDSM porn). I think this is wrong. Why is that so hard to understand? Unless this is also about judging what people do in their own bedrooms when that has nothing to do with abusing women.
Whilst I’m not going to condone the content of literary child porn, personally finding it abhorrent, again, where do you draw the line? Banning Lolita? Censor films like American Beauty, produced to convey the impression of a child engaging in sexual activity? The point about banning child pornography is that videos/images cannot be produced without abusing a child. Where that hasn’t happened, what crime is being committed? Would you ban CG/literary representations of bestiality, something else both illegal in real life and abhorrent?
I think the child porn route is a diversion and I’d prefer we didn’t get bogged down in it, instead sticking to violent porn and censorship.
Comment by Sofie — September 10, 2006 @ 4:06 pm
Sofie, I have now asked you twice whether you think it is OK for men to sell and watch the rape of a woman. I will ask you a third time, although it seems that you are avoiding the question.
Sofie, a group of men rape a woman and film it. They sell the tape to other men watch the tape of the women being raped. This happens and it happens in this country. Do you think it is OK for men to sell and watch the rape of a woman?
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 4:34 pm
Saying that you find something ‘abhorrent’ is like saying you don’t like a certain type of food. Saying that you find something ‘abhorrent’ is not the same as taking a political position for or against something.
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 4:36 pm
No Sofie,
Talking about child pornography is not a diversion. It is not just the production of child pornography that is a criminal offense. You argue that child pornography should be illegal because children are abused – they cannot consent. The thing is Sofie, viewing and possessing child pornography is also illegal and this is not because the man viewing it is abusing the child – he is not. The reason viewing and possessing child pornography is illegal is that any man that buys it is contributing to the future abuse of children to in order to meet the demand for child pornography. Get it? If you consume something that involves the abuse of another person, then you are contributing to further abuse. This applies to the abuse of women as it does to the abuse of children.
Child pornography is also illegal because the men that view it have their abusive tendencies towards children validated and they are able to feel that they are normal because they belong to a community of men who all view child porn and are immersed in it. Viewing child pornography aggravates/validates/normalises men’s desire to abuse children and the same is true for men’s desire to abuse children.
This is not a diversion and I am somewhat disturbed that you are not particularly bothered about making clear that you oppose child pornography in all its forms, instead talking about ‘american beauty’ – now that IS a diversion. No one is talking about ‘american beauty’. The question I asked was about animated child porn or child porn literature, i.e. graphic accounts of adult men abusing children.
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 4:50 pm
Sofie, are you a porn-consumer yourself?
Comment by delphyne — September 10, 2006 @ 5:01 pm
Sofie,
Are you a member of Feminists Against Censorship?
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 5:04 pm
Apart from the legal status of ’simulated’ (or even real) rape porn, all of what Nieves says (below) is applicable for the validation & consumption of that product in that respect. I’m going to take the liberty of replacing child with woman/women (hope that’s ok) and have put the amendments in bold.
“Rape pornography is [also] legal because the men that view it have their abusive tendencies towards women validated and they are able to feel that they are normal because they belong to a community of men who all view rape porn and are immersed in it. Viewing rape pornography aggravates/validates/normalises men’s desire to abuse women and the same is true for men’s desire to abuse women.”
Comment by Stormcloud — September 10, 2006 @ 5:04 pm
Sofie, I have now asked you twice whether you think it is OK for men to sell and watch the rape of a woman.
And I’ve replied twice – it’s not “ok” as in I think it’s wrong. I’m politically opposed to it, it’s sick. I don’t think it should be banned, which is the logical conclusion you want me to come to – what should be and is banned is the act of producing those videos (rape is illegal), not possessing it.
It is not just the production of child pornography that is a criminal offense. You argue that child pornography should be illegal because children are abused – they cannot consent. The thing is Sofie, viewing and possessing child pornography is also illegal and this is not because the man viewing it is abusing the child – he is not. The reason viewing and possessing child pornography is illegal is that any man that buys it is contributing to the future abuse of children to in order to meet the demand for child pornography
I agree.
This applies to the abuse of women as it does to the abuse of children.
I disagree – there can be pornography which depicts violent acts being performed by and on women that is not a record of abuse. Consensual versions of this kind of porn can be made. Also, this is not the issue here – *all* violent porn possession, not just that that stimulates a market (having been bought) or is genuinely of rape, is being banned. Simply having an image on your PC of a woman and man acting out rape could see you jailed for 3 years. That’s an incredible leap from being politically opposed to rape, filmed or not.
Sofie, are you a porn-consumer yourself?
What I get off on is quite literally none of your fucking business, and my refusal to engage with this line of argument is not indication I’m a) a man or b) I buy sexist heterosexual porn. I’m just not into talking about my sex life online during political discussions.
Are you a member of Feminists Against Censorship?
No, I’m not politically involved with them
Comment by Sofie — September 10, 2006 @ 5:17 pm
The message I was trying to get through was on Nieves’ comment.
Apart from the legal status of ’simulated’ (or even real) rape porn, all of what Nieves says is applicable for the validation & consumption of that product in that respect.
(In my ‘experiment’ I took the liberty of replacing child with woman/women in Nieves’ #77, putting the amendments in bold. I’ve checked the HTML tags, and all is wonderful, so don’t know why it won’t go through!) Will try in two parts..
Comment by Stormcloud — September 10, 2006 @ 5:18 pm
Sofie,
You use the word ’sick’. No, it’s not sick, neither is it deviant. It is perfectly normal for men to watch footage of women being raped. We live in a culture of rape.
I don’t understand why you are politically opposed to men viewing footage of women being raped. You have not provided a single bit of information to support your choice to be politically opposed to men’s consumption of rape/torture/murder.
Political positions are not about taste. If you are opposed to something there must be a reason behind it. You have to provide some reason why you are opposed to the sale and distribution + viewing/possession of actual rape footage. ‘It’s sick’ is not an arguement.
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 5:51 pm
“What I get off on is quite literally none of your fucking business, and my refusal to engage with this line of argument is not indication I’m a) a man or b) I buy sexist heterosexual porn. I’m just not into talking about my sex life online during political discussions.”
I don’t want to know about your sex-life, I want to know whether you are a porn-consumer – two different things. Pornography is political: it is hate speech against women, it sexually degrades women and helps maintain our second class status to men. If you are defending it, because you are actually a consumer then you need to declare your interest.
Just for the record so I’m not asking you do to anything I wouldn’t do myself, I used to look at porn (didn’t actually buy it) then I read feminist arguments against it and I realised how oppressive to women and how sexist it was.
I tell you what Sofie, I keep finding myself wanting to give you lessons in feminism: the personal is political, that’s a fundamental truth of feminism. Of course those who want to maintain male sexual oppression of women would like to pretend otherwise and disguise the abuse under the cloak of “privacy”.
Comment by delphyne — September 10, 2006 @ 5:53 pm
Just like you Delphyne, I was once a user of pornography and I have taken part in porn. I was first exposed to porn as a toddler. All my boyfriends were users. I have also had the misfortune of viewing child pornography.
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 5:58 pm
I’m really sorry to hear that, Nieves. I first saw porn when I was four.
Comment by delphyne — September 10, 2006 @ 6:04 pm
softcore at around 8 or 9
Comment by Stormcloud — September 10, 2006 @ 6:13 pm
I was about five and I remember that I couldn’t keep my eyes off it (these were pornographic magazines). Because I was a girl I knew that I was going to be a woman one day and I idolised the women in the porn. It was as if I was being given a secret formula of how to be a woman and I copied the poses. My parents seemed to think it was cute (they didn’t know about the porn) and took pictures of me doing the same poses as the women in the porn magazines.
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 6:14 pm
I don’t understand why you are politically opposed to men viewing footage of women being raped. You have not provided a single bit of information to support your choice to be politically opposed to men’s consumption of rape/torture/murder.
Political positions are not about taste. If you are opposed to something there must be a reason behind it. You have to provide some reason why you are opposed to the sale and distribution + viewing/possession of actual rape footage. ‘It’s sick’ is not an arguement.
Despite thinking this argument is basically a bit mad, I’ll continue – in the same way I’d be opposed to the distribution of racist or fascist material, I’m opposed to people viewing/distributing images of what is basically torture. It’s not something I’d do, and I think it’s indicative of a wider lack of concern for women, and for other human beings more generally that people watch such material (sometimes out of sheer curiosity, sometimes because they get off on it). This doesn’t mean I’m in favour of banning viewing as a solution – for example, I find many of my friend’s decision to watch the Nick Berg beheading video, and send it to others online, sick and a bit disturbing, but I don’t think they should be prosecuted.
I dispute, however, that it’s a widespread practice, unless you define all porn as rape porn as I’ve seen some radical feminists do.
Comment by Sofie — September 10, 2006 @ 6:17 pm
When I was older (7/8) I used to be exposed to porn regularly, usally at friend’s houses. The boys would get out their dad’s porn and the girls didn’t want to be uncool by refusing to look at it. I was also exposed to it in shop when other kids would pick them off the shelves and open them. I remember looking at the pictures and think that there was something really strange about the pictures. Why were the women doing those strange things? Why were they all bent and showing their private parts. I felt really crap about it, but wanted to know how to be a proper woman; how to pose, how to look.
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 6:19 pm
Sofie, you still haven’t provided anything whatsoever to back up an opposition to rape porn. If you are opposed to it there must be a reason. A good reason. Saying that you think it’s sick is not a reason. ‘Sick’ is a moralistic judgement. ‘Sick’ is a matter of personal taste. I’m not interested in your personal tastes. Saying that the consumption of rape porn is indicative of a wider lack of concern for women is not a reason for opposing men’s distribution/consumption of rape porn, because that is only exploring the reason why men seek out this kind of pornography. You said that you are opposed to men’s consumption of videos of women being raped. Why?
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 6:27 pm
Sofie,
If by ‘this argument is basically a bit mad’ you are referring to this thread then I put it to you that you are coming across as only being keen to ‘debate’ as long as it’s on your own terms.
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 6:39 pm
My (slightly younger male) cousins found my uncle’s oh-so-cleverly-hidden stash in the wardrobe.
I was perplexed, not understanding why nudity was really considered ‘naughty’. It was fairly tame stuff, and it was the late 60s / early 70s.
I still don’t have a problem with nudity – but I don’t show any more than my forearms in public because of the highly sexualised climate we live in – gee, thanks porn.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 10, 2006 @ 6:40 pm
Sofie, can you elaborate. What exactly to you mean when you say:
‘I’d be opposed to the distribution of racist or fascist material’
Are you saying that you are opposed to the distribution of racist and/or fascist materials? Yes or no. Are you opposed to the distribution of racist and/or fascist materials?
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 6:42 pm
Nieves, according to your logic, why are you opposed to it? Are you saying you can only be opposed to something if you’re in favour of the government banning it? I’m genuinely confused here.
Are you saying that you are opposed to the distribution of racist and/or fascist materials? Yes or no. Are you opposed to the distribution of racist and/or fascist materials?
Isn’t that literally what I actually said?
Comment by Sofie — September 10, 2006 @ 7:00 pm
Sofie, you are yet to provive any reasons for being opposed to rape porn. Provide us with some reasons why you are opposed to rape porn. Saying that it’s ’sick’ is not giving a valid reason.
Second, why are you opposed to the distribution of racist and/or fascist materials? More specifically: why are you opposed to the distribution of materials that are discriminatory against people belonging to particular ethinic groups? Does this mean that you support current legislation that outlaws the distribution of materials that are racist?
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 7:09 pm
Sofie, your confusion stems from an internal battle whereby your capacity for logic is in a deadlock with your irrational, but strongly held, beliefs. Let us know which one wins.
Comment by Nieves — September 10, 2006 @ 8:52 pm
I would say,not even strongly held beliefs, but what the patriarchal assholery in her department are telling her is the word.
Comment by Pony — September 10, 2006 @ 8:59 pm
I leave my computer for five minutes (okay, for the weekend) and suddenly I have 100 comments. Yikes!
Comment by Laurelin — September 10, 2006 @ 9:27 pm
Now it’s 100.
Comment by Laurelin — September 10, 2006 @ 10:39 pm
Now it’s 101.
Comment by Nieves — September 11, 2006 @ 7:05 am
Christ, can you all please stop attacking her? Seriously, what are you trying to achieve here? If it’s anything other than this woman getting seriously put off, leaving and never EVER going down a line of thought likely to bring her over to the anti-porn side of thinking, you’ve got the wrong tactic.
Sorry, Laurelin, I don’t mean to get bossy on your blog, it’s just… gah. This ganging up on the new kid thing is just sickening.
Comment by hexy — September 11, 2006 @ 7:45 am
Thanks, hexy.
Sofie, you are yet to provive any reasons for being opposed to rape porn. Provide us with some reasons why you are opposed to rape porn. Saying that it’s ’sick’ is not giving a valid reason.
Isn’t it basically obvious why you should be opposed to people videoing their rape of women? Seriously, what do you want me to say? That I think getting off on watching someone be tortured is wrong? That it shows real fucked-up-ness on the part of the viewer and that that’s probably a sign of much deeper societal problems, both in general and specific to the viewer (i.e. many abusers have themselves been abused)?
Let me ask you a question, despite the fact you haven’t answered any I’ve posed yet – do you think videos of assaults or murders should be banned? Such material is often easy to come by, news reels, videos of executions etc. Should it also be banned, a prosecutable offence to view or possess?
Second, why are you opposed to the distribution of racist and/or fascist materials? More specifically: why are you opposed to the distribution of materials that are discriminatory against people belonging to particular ethinic groups? Does this mean that you support current legislation that outlaws the distribution of materials that are racist?
I’m opposed to it – I don’t support it. That’s not the same as saying it should be banned – like the above argument, it’s possible to say something’s wrong, to be politically opposed to it in the sense you’d like it to stop and think the world would be a better place without it, without thinking government prohibition is the way to go. In that sense, I’m against laws that prohibit the distribution of racist material, but I’m not sure which you are referring to – much art and culture is racist, and not banned.
Incitement to racial hatred is a different issue – when people watch violent porn, or even rape porn, there is a jump that has to be made from seeing a woman raped on screen and extrapolating to an incitement to violence against all women. In the case of violent porn there is often a fantasy/reality divide which humans are very good at drawing – I don’t think porn acts as a direct incitement to violence against women. In the case of incitement to racial hatred, however, an immediate physical threat is posed to some groups, and so I’m basically in favour of the law.
Comment by Sofie — September 11, 2006 @ 9:38 am
Incitement to racial hatred is a different issue – when people watch violent porn, or even rape porn, there is a jump that has to be made from seeing a woman raped on screen and extrapolating to an incitement to violence against all women.
I cannot see how a video of sexualised violence against women is anything other than an incitement to violence against women. WHy would anyone fantasise about this, if not because they hate women and wish them harm? This material adds to an atmosphere in which women are regarded as objects to be violated and abused, and is part of an entire rape culture.
The woman in the video is being abused because she is a woman. She is targetted for that reason alone. Rape is a hate crime, and anything that glamourises rape and violence agsint women should never be tolerated. It’s not as simple as a tape of an execution- that document would not have been recorded and distributed in order that men could get off on it. That is precisely what rape porn is made to do.
Comment by Laurelin — September 11, 2006 @ 9:47 am
that document would not have been recorded and distributed in order that men could get off on it
I’m not sure about this. Some people probably do get off on murder, and some people would probably watch recorded rapes for reasons other than becoming aroused; people are ambulance-chasing oddballs sometimes, just look at the top ten videos on YouTube on any one day. I simply don’t buy that all “rape porn” is footage of actual rapes either – where’s the evidence? Some perfectly sane, normal, non-woman-haters like to fantasise about rape in the privacy of their own bedrooms, and with consenting partners, act out that fantasy. That isn’t necessarily a sign of deep misogyny
Comment by Sofie — September 11, 2006 @ 9:57 am
If (some) men didn’t get off on rape porn it wouldn’t be produced. And whether ’simulated’ or ‘real’, it still serves the same function- as hate ’speech’ against women, part of the whole mechanism that is designed to keep women oppressed and afraid.
I simply don’t buy that all “rape porn” is footage of actual rapes either – where’s the evidence?
There is plenty of evidence of the abuses that go on in the making of porn. I’m worried that you require concrete proof that rape porn is ‘real rape’. Surely if there’s even the slightest chance, that’s enough to justify banning it?
Some perfectly sane, normal, non-woman-haters like to fantasise about rape in the privacy of their own bedrooms, and with consenting partners, act out that fantasy. That isn’t necessarily a sign of deep misogyny
Firstly, rapists are not ‘insane’. Psychological tests on them tend to show them as being psychologically normal. Rapists are ‘normal’ men, walking around.
Secondly, if one is fantasising about raping a woman what is it other than a sign of misogyny? Why should people’s fantasies be beyond the realm of criticism? Why would a man fantasise about rape if not because of being a misogynist? Please, if you have an answer, tell me, because I’m truly stumped on this question.
Comment by Laurelin — September 11, 2006 @ 10:04 am
‘In the case of incitement to racial hatred, however, an immediate physical threat is posed to some groups, and so I’m basically in favour of the law.’
Violent pornography tells men that women enjoy being raped, hurt and degraded and that it is this rape, hurt and degradation that forms the basis of sexual relationships between men and women. It therefore poses an immediate physical threat to some groups, namely women and girls. No, there isn’t a voiceover saying ‘go and rape women’, but men who use porn will want to have sex (ie what they have been orgasming to onscreen) with real women as well and they therefore pose a risk to these women.
Comment by Laura — September 11, 2006 @ 10:07 am
whether ’simulated’ or ‘real’, it still serves the same function- as hate ’speech’ against women, part of the whole mechanism that is designed to keep women oppressed and afraid.
Don’t lots of media feed into this general culture? Should we ban films that depict violent rapes in case someone gets off on them, or they scare women?
There is plenty of evidence of the abuses that go on in the making of porn. I’m worried that you require concrete proof that rape porn is ‘real rape’. Surely if there’s even the slightest chance, that’s enough to justify banning it?
There is a distinct difference between the abuses of the porn industry (to which the answer is whole-heartedly not to drive it further into the hands of gangsters by banning it, but to treat sex workers as workers, with the same rights and ability to organise to improve their conditions), and evidence of a systematic distribution of videos of rape. Both are wrong, I’m not suggesting the abuse of sex workers is any less wrong, but politically they are different things. I don’t believe the latter exists. And, even if it did, it already is illegal and I don’t think possession/viewing of the video is the crime.
Secondly, if one is fantasising about raping a woman what is it other than a sign of misogyny? Why should people’s fantasies be beyond the realm of criticism?
They’re not, but I do think they should be beyond the realm of legislation. That means creating a thought crime.
Comment by Sofie — September 11, 2006 @ 10:23 am
Also, do you think that the words of, say, one man telling his followers to kill westerners are more powerful than millions of misogynistic images which portray rape and abuse as normal and pleasurable ways of sexually interacting with women? Personally, I find the latter much more powerful and find it difficult to understand why one could support the incitement to religious hatred bill and not the law banning violent and extreme porn (or incitement to gender hatred).
Comment by Laura — September 11, 2006 @ 10:24 am
Personally, I find the latter much more powerful and find it difficult to understand why one could support the incitement to religious hatred bill and not the law banning violent and extreme porn
I don’t support incitement to religious hatred – I think it’s a blow to freedom of speech that it passed. There’s a distinct difference between criticising religion, a set of ideas, and inciting hatred based on someone’s perceived race.
The distinction between ideology and material reality is important here – in your view, porn is incitement to violence against women because of the reactionary messages it carries with it about sex and violence. But if porn is about putting bad ideas into people’s head, that’s not enough reason to support banning it – I’m against the banning or burning of books which do the same thing, for example. The way to combat bad ideology is through ideology: by argument, by producing counter- and subversive images and ideas, by campaigning for non-oppressive alternatives.
Comment by Sofie — September 11, 2006 @ 10:31 am
Sorry, meant to type racial hatred, not religious.
For me, the anti-violent porn law sends out a strong message that this material, and the sexual abuse of women in this way, is not acceptable in our society: as long as getting off to women being raped and abused is acceptable (and it is acceptable if it is legal)any fight for true equality and women’s liberation is going to be very difficult. No matter how hard we fight for equal pay and reproduction rights etc, if men – and boys in particular – are repeatedly watching material that degrades us and reinforces the idea that we are beneath them they are not going to take equality legislation and ideology seriously.
No matter how much noise we make about women being equal, no matter how much we protest against violence against women, porn will be telling men and boys that we are talking shit because all we really deserve is a wad of come in th face. Laws help us set out what is and isn’t acceptable in society, and any law that questions the acceptance of pornography and violence against women can only help our cause in my eyes. .
I’m sure you don’t agree, Sofie, but just wanted to chuck my thoughts out on teh subject as I’m a bit het up about it at the mo!
Comment by Laura — September 11, 2006 @ 11:12 am
Laura, have I mentioned recently how much I love you? Well, I do.
Comment by Laurelin — September 11, 2006 @ 11:16 am
Thanks! xxx
Comment by Laura — September 11, 2006 @ 11:36 am
are repeatedly watching material that degrades us and reinforces the idea that we are beneath them they are not going to take equality legislation and ideology seriously
Doesn’t this also apply to many different kinds of media?
Comment by Sofie — September 11, 2006 @ 11:47 am
“Incitement to racial hatred is a different issue – when people watch violent porn, or even rape porn, there is a jump that has to be made from seeing a woman raped on screen and extrapolating to an incitement to violence against all women.”
This goes back to what I said about whether people are able to see women as human deserving respect as much as the next person. Most people (apart from out and out racists who have a vested interest) don’t find it difficult to make the jump that racial hate literature can have an effect on people’s views about the group being targeted. You don’t even need to have studies to prove it – it’s a given in our society – people accept the idea. When it comes to material that depicts women being raped, abused, urinated on, forced to have sex with animals etc., even when studies have show than this material has a real detrimental effect on people’s views of women, misoynists stubbornly refuse to acknowledge what it is they are actually looking at – hate speech against women.
“Some perfectly sane, normal, non-woman-haters like to fantasise about rape in the privacy of their own bedrooms, and with consenting partners, act out that fantasy. That isn’t necessarily a sign of deep misogyny”
Some perfectly sane, normal, non-racist, non-homophobes like to fantasise about committing racial attacks and gay-bashing in the privacy of their own bedrooms and with consenting partners, act out the fantasy. That isn’t necessarily a sign of deep racism or homophobia.
Sofie, one in three women will be raped or sexually assaulted. Men who fantasise about doing this to women are misogynists and are a danger to women and girls.
Comment by delphyne — September 11, 2006 @ 1:02 pm
I don’t accept that having sexual fantasies around non-consent leads men to rape, in the same way women who fantasise about rape don’t, of course, actually want to be raped.
Comment by Sofie — September 11, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
I don’t want to get too much into supposed female rape fantasies here, because it is by and large a trap, but Sofie I have to say here that I don’t believe we’re comparing like with like. Women are heavily socialised into identifying with a submissive role in sex, and it’s no wonder that such fantasies occur- it is meant to provide justification for women’s subordination. But a rape fantasy by definition isn’t about an actual rape because it implies consent. I don’t believe that’s the case in terms of male ‘rape fantasy’.
Comment by Laurelin — September 11, 2006 @ 1:25 pm
“I don’t accept that having sexual fantasies around non-consent leads men to rape, in the same way women who fantasise about rape don’t, of course, actually want to be raped.”
Of course you don’t Sofie. If you did your world-view would come tumbling down. You can see the ridiculousness of saying that someone fantasising about beating up gay people or people from ethnic minorities isn’t a bigot, but you can’t quite stretch that to a man who gets sexually excited at the thought of raping a woman.
We live in a male supremacist society where men use sexual aggression to keep women oppressed. Men who are taking part in it either through their fantasies or through their actions are women’s enemies. A man who was truly against the sexual subordination of women would not be fantasising about raping women on his days off.
Also it’s very silly to compare a man fantasising about rape to a woman fantasising about being raped. By wanting the rape a woman is actually desiring the sex therefore it isn’t rape. Also she can never make someone rape her because again it wouldn’t be rape if she wanted it. On the other hand a man can fantasise about a rape and then go out and commit the act. In fact that is usually the chain of events. People dealing with rapists have to confront their fantasies and their attitudes to women first.
Do you know men who have rape fantasies? You seem very set on defending them.
Comment by delphyne — September 11, 2006 @ 1:53 pm
Laura said:
“No matter how much noise we make about women being equal, no matter how much we protest against violence against women, porn will be telling men and boys that we are talking shit because all we really deserve is a wad of come in th face. Laws help us set out what is and isn’t acceptable in society, and any law that questions the acceptance of pornography and violence against women can only help our cause in my eyes. .”
Thanks for saying that Laura, it was one of my underlying beliefs, but I had not expressed it earlier.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 11, 2006 @ 2:10 pm
I don’t believe that’s the case in terms of male ‘rape fantasy’.
What about when couples act out rape fantasies together? The man always has to really mean it?
You can see the ridiculousness of saying that someone fantasising about beating up gay people or people from ethnic minorities isn’t a bigot, but you can’t quite stretch that to a man who gets sexually excited at the thought of raping a woman.
I don’t think men who act out rape fantasies with their partner are necessarily motivated by a deep hatred of women. I think what they are motivated by is probably much more complex than I can understand with some basic A-level Psychology. I’m sure some men who have these fantasies (bearing in mind we’re talking in a sweeping way about something capable of being quite different) are bigoted towards women – that’s totally beside the point of whether or not it ought to be banned.
On the other hand a man can fantasise about a rape and then go out and commit the act. In fact that is usually the chain of events.
I seriously, seriously doubt this. Considering most rape is committed by boyfriends, ex-boyfriends, acquaintances etc, are you seriously suggesting rape is the result of sexual fantasies about violent non-consent? It seems implausible, and I’d be interested to see evidence. It’s missing the point about rape – it’s not about acting out some warped sexuality, it’s about power and domination.
On your point about “defending” these men, there’s a distinct difference between saying something shouldn’t be government prohibited (since when do we trust those guys with anything?) and out-n-out cheerleading for something we might find unpleasant and reactionary.
Comment by Sofie — September 11, 2006 @ 2:51 pm
Sofie- no-one’s claiming that rape is the result only of rape porn, so please don’t accuse us of doing so; it’s disingenuous.
Comment by Laurelin — September 11, 2006 @ 3:01 pm
“What about when couples act out rape fantasies together? The man always has to really mean it?”
What do you mean “mean it”? Do you mean he gets an erection at the thought of pretending to rape a woman? I’d say he meant it.
“I don’t think men who act out rape fantasies with their partner are necessarily motivated by a deep hatred of women. I think what they are motivated by is probably much more complex than I can understand with some basic A-level Psychology. I’m sure some men who have these fantasies (bearing in mind we’re talking in a sweeping way about something capable of being quite different) are bigoted towards women – that’s totally beside the point of whether or not it ought to be banned.”
Dictonaries, academia now psychology – is there any patriarchal source you won’t turn to to bolster your sexist arguments? You aren’t just arguing against violent pornography being banned, Sophie, you are arguing that men who fantasise about this sort of stuff aren’t bigots and woman-haters. The thing is you are incorrect.
“I seriously, seriously doubt this. Considering most rape is committed by boyfriends, ex-boyfriends, acquaintances etc, are you seriously suggesting rape is the result of sexual fantasies about violent non-consent? It seems implausible, and I’d be interested to see evidence. It’s missing the point about rape – it’s not about acting out some warped sexuality, it’s about power and domination.”
Then you are seriously wrong. Like I said, rape starts with fantasies and beliefs – the belief that women want sexual violence, the belief that the man has the right to do anything he likes to a woman sexually. If you don’t need evidence to show you that material that promotes racial hatred is dangerous, you don’t need evidence to show you that material that promotes hatred against women is dangerous.
The man who raped me had violent sexual fantasies about women. I should have paid attention when he gave me a copy of the Marquis de Sade the year before, but I didn’t have the information at the time that men who enjoy that type of woman-hating material, do indeed mean it.
“On your point about “defending” these men, there’s a distinct difference between saying something shouldn’t be government prohibited (since when do we trust those guys with anything?) and out-n-out cheerleading for something we might find unpleasant and reactionary.”
Sofie, you’ve been posting merrily away trying to tell us that men who have rape fantasies, men who act out rape fantasies don’t hate women and aren’t our enemies. That’s what I mean when I say you are defending them. But once more you are using disingenuous tactics and deliberately misinterpreting me.
I’m going to ask you once again, are you a porn user, because further up the thread you said you didn’t purchase sexist heterosexual pornography. Cynic that I am I read that as a politician’s answer – not denying that you look at porn. I’d also like to know if you know men who have rape fantasies becuase of your vehement defence of them. You haven’t answered that either.
Comment by delphyne — September 11, 2006 @ 4:05 pm
Dictonaries, academia now psychology – is there any patriarchal source you won’t turn to to bolster your sexist arguments?
Think I’m wrong all you like, but I’m not *sexist*. Jeez. And if all knowledge is patriarchal, why are we even bothering – hey, maybe a man invented the internet, we shouldn’t really be using it… it’s ridiculous!
Sophie, you are arguing that men who fantasise about this sort of stuff aren’t bigots and woman-haters.
Where have I said this? Saying they’re not necessarily bigots just for acting out rape fantasies with a partner, for example, is not the same thing as saying “all men who fantasise about rape aren’t bigots”. I actually said:
I’m sure some men who have these fantasies (bearing in mind we’re talking in a sweeping way about something capable of being quite different) are bigoted towards women – that’s totally beside the point of whether or not it ought to be banned.
I’ve already told you I’m not going to answer your questions about my sex life, and as far as I’m aware I don’t know any men who have rape fantasies – I don’t tend to ask my friends questions like that, oddly enough.
Comment by Sofie — September 11, 2006 @ 4:40 pm
Sofie, I’ve left a short comment on your blog. In addition I wonder: you said you think viewing consensual sexual violence is not wrong but viewing non-consensual violence is sick. How can you tell the difference?
Comment by jo — September 11, 2006 @ 5:07 pm
Purposefully seeking out material that is genuinely *not* rape fantasy but actually footage of a women being abused is, I think, more reprehensible than watching consensual sexual violence. Like I’ve said above, humans are pretty good at drawing the lines between fantasy and reality, so I don’t find the latter as bad. Of course, most people assume that if women appear in commercial porn it is in fact fantasy, and not the kind of backstreet bordering-on-snuff you’re talking about (which I’ve never seen any evidence of existing, but it’s hard to find information so I’m happy to stand corrected).
Comment by Sofie — September 11, 2006 @ 5:16 pm
“Of course, most people assume that if women appear in commercial porn it is in fact fantasy, and not the kind of backstreet bordering-on-snuff you’re talking about (which I’ve never seen any evidence of existing, but it’s hard to find information so I’m happy to stand corrected).”
No, it doesn’t exist, not at all. No one has ever filmed a real rape. Wouldn’t happen. Not in this camera-saturated society. Who would do such a thing? Surely not a rapist. Nope. Never.
Comment by jo — September 11, 2006 @ 5:42 pm
No, it doesn’t exist, not at all. No one has ever filmed a real rape. Wouldn’t happen. Not in this camera-saturated society. Who would do such a thing? Surely not a rapist. Nope. Never.
Like I said, I’d be interested to see evidence of a market for footage of genuine rapes, and I’m happy (well, that rings a little hollow in the circumstances) to stand corrected. I’m not saying isolated incidents don’t happen but I think we’re arguing about something that isn’t as widespread as many claim.
Comment by Sofie — September 11, 2006 @ 5:45 pm
There’s a market for “simulated” rapes, so there’s a market for real ones – call it the next step. Besides, the majority of porn-users, particularly on the web, have no idea which is which, and usually don’t care. That’s why keeping the simulated ones alive and well is dangerous.
Comment by jo — September 11, 2006 @ 6:00 pm
There’s a market for “simulated” rapes, so there’s a market for real ones – call it the next step. Besides, the majority of porn-users, particularly on the web, have no idea which is which, and usually don’t care. That’s why keeping the simulated rapes alive and well, defending them even, is very dangerous.
Comment by jo — September 11, 2006 @ 6:00 pm
The bottom line is: Sofie doesn’t care and no argument in the world is going to make her care.
S H E D O E S N ‘ T C A R E.
Comment by Nieves — September 11, 2006 @ 6:32 pm
“…many abusers have themselves been abused”
Does she have any idea at all what she’s just said?
Right over her head.
I get the distinct feeling that Sofie is being directed in her reponses here, just like the women being raped are directed; by their handlers.
Comment by Pony — September 11, 2006 @ 6:41 pm
That’s right Nieves. 130 and counting posts here, more on Vociferate and at least one other blog (mentioned at Vociferate) and Sofie has not learned one thing about pornstitution and her role in the subjugation and degradation of her own kind. She’s just learning new and innovative ways of being disingenuous and dishonest {I’m honest I use my own name she says}. Hork.
Comment by Pony — September 11, 2006 @ 6:53 pm
OK, that’s basically enough with the pile-on. Whatever, continue believing you don’t have to debate your beliefs, put them on as many pedestals as you like – it’s pointless debating with people who think I don’t care/I’m a troll/I’m a puppet of patriarchy/I’m a man.
When feminists fight anti-feminists, we face bad-faith assumptions and abuse. When we behave that way towards each other, we should be fucking ashamed.
Comment by Sofie — September 11, 2006 @ 6:53 pm
As I said already, I’ve seen arguments like yours from countless pro-porners, Sofie. They aren’t any less woman-hating or callous just because they happen to be coming from you today.
I’m going to ask you a question that I ask a lot of the other pro-porn feminists. If you find disagreement with your views so upsetting, why don’t you just post in feminist venues (most of them) where being pro-porn is the majority view?
There is Pandagon, amptoons, feministing, LiveJournal Feminist, Livejournal Feminist_Rage, Livejournal Feminist_Sex, Feministe. Loads and loads of places with loads and loads of feminists, all on your side. Yet you come to an anti-porn blog and then complain when you meet strong disagreement.
Comment by delphyne — September 11, 2006 @ 7:02 pm
“Think I’m wrong all you like, but I’m not *sexist*. Jeez.”
BTW I said your arguments were sexist, not you. Seriously, if you’d respond to what was actually said rather than what you want to see you’d probably receive a less hostile response.
Comment by delphyne — September 11, 2006 @ 7:05 pm
Delphyne,
When one is pro-porn, anti-porn feminists are the enemy. Get it? Anti-porn feminists see patriarchy, systems of male domination as the enemy so we direct our efforts at those systems and the powerful men upholding them. People that are pro-porn direct their efforts at anti-porn feminists because we are perceived as a threat to the continued expansion of EMPIRE: PORN.
Comment by Nieves — September 11, 2006 @ 7:09 pm
Why do we keep hearing the word ‘debate’ from Sofie? This is not a debate. We are not debating. In this context, the use of the word ‘debate’ by Sofie, is nothing more a by-word for arguing. Debating takes skills and reasoning skills. Here, from Wiki:
Debate or debating is a formal method of interactive and position representational argument. Rules governing debate allow groups and individuals to discuss and decide issues and differences. Debate is an aspect of argument which is distinct from logical argument, in that it encompasses aspects of human persuasion which appeal to emotional responses.
Debate is a common process in deliberative bodies such as parliaments, legislative assemblies, and meetings of all sorts. Outcomes of debates may be decided by voting, by judges, or by combination of both. Formal debates between candidates for elected office such as the leaders debates and the U.S. presidential election debates are common in democracies.
Comment by Nieves — September 11, 2006 @ 7:19 pm
Nieves, post #130 – bold and extra spacing (WOW!) – I think that was the point I reached back at #39.
Delphyne, I hear what your saying (#136), but I don’t quite get why they (need to) think of themselves as feminists (being only prepared to see parts of the problem, and not the main methods of oppression). Part-feminism to me, seems like being ‘a little bit pregnant’.
In (men’s) war, the first things they take out are communications and infrastructure. Surely this is, in effect, what anti-porn feminists are doing in a war against patriarchy. It just seems logical, if for no other reason.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 11, 2006 @ 7:37 pm
A feminist we all know and love refers to part-feminists as “feminist lite”.
Comment by Pony — September 11, 2006 @ 10:54 pm
Anyway…
the proposed law makes possession of material that depicts “extreme sexual or life-threatening violence” illegal.
Good.
Who gives a rats arse whether it was made ‘consensually’ or not. Not the people who get off on “extreme sexual or life-threatening violence”, that’s for sure. And why should their predelictions take precidence over my safety, that of my daughter, that of any woman anywhere?
I agree with jo at #129
And while I used to say things like “I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” when I was in my idealistic twenties, I have come to learn at first hand how misogyny speaks and I will never, ever defend that voice now.
It’s all very well to say that, rather than curb the speech, one should try to combat ideology with ideology (as Sophie said way, way upthread) but, as far as women are concerned, this doesn’t work.
You think we’d have got the vote if we’d played nice? You think the Equal Pay Act and all the other reforms of the 70’s would’ve been passed if we’d played nice? No.
To say that pornographic material that depicts extreme sexual or life-threatening violence is somehow ok is tantamount to saying that it’s ok for these things to happen to women – whether or not they’re simulated. (How do you know?) To care about women first is to decry the rights of patriarchy to continually and always make us ‘less than’. I’m women first, everything else after.
And for an enlightening view on how fantasy meets reality can I refer Sophie to this post?
http://bitingbeaver.blogspot.com/2006/06/blowing-apart-myths.html
Comment by witchy-woo — September 11, 2006 @ 11:06 pm
(I too thought Jo’s #129 was very good).
Witchy, I agree, nice just doesn’t get us anywhere. I’ve said it for a while, that for the last 20 years, feminists have been nice, and what we’ve got now is wall-to-porn in every damn shop, and going backward by the minute. Things look like getting even worse. Good citation on the BB.
Feminist Lite. yep.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 11, 2006 @ 11:53 pm
I’d be happy to combat pornographic ideology with more ideology if like the porn industry, feminism had a $9 billion turnover, which we could use to promote our ideas. As we don’t we need to use other means to protect ourselves from misogyny.
Comment by delphyne — September 12, 2006 @ 12:27 am
Delphyne,
Have you not been listening to Sofie? It is the pornographers who are an oppressed minority in a fundamentalist regime run by anti-porn women. Pornographers are a small and powerless group of people who struggle to free themselves from the tyranny of feminism. They fight bravely for their right to speak, but any efforts to organise against the oppressors (radical feminists) are brutally put an end to.
Comment by Nieves — September 12, 2006 @ 7:23 am
Thanks for clarifying the issues Nieves – I will now do all I can to help those pooor widdle pornographers and I will try to stop being an oppressive tyrannical anti-porn feminist.
Quick! – get me my FAC joining form – nah wait, let me sprint over to my bestest buds, the MoronFarmers!
Comment by Stormcloud — September 12, 2006 @ 11:40 am
I googled simulated rape porn: 258,000 hits. Real rape porn: 12,000,000
Ok?
The real stuff is obviously simulated as well though, since no one would film rape if it were really really real because all pornographers are extremely nice and respectful and spend most of their time in lavender fields (when not constructing scenes of violence) contemplating the nature of beauty.
Comment by jo — September 12, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
Sofie doesn’t appear to be publishing my comments on the post at her blog regarding this thread.
I’ve pointed out that the guy Kit who appears to like lecturing us feminists on how to fight our battles is not unlike a share-owning capitalist lecturing organised labour on the same. I wonder how big Kit’s porn collection is. I’m sure it is full of non-sexist, non-oppressive material.
I really, really don’t like socialists attempting to use feminism as a launching pad for their own agendas and I’m speaking as a socialist myself.
Comment by delphyne — September 12, 2006 @ 3:05 pm
woah i had no idea this thread had got so long.
just checked back in to say that i’ve been waiting and waiting but the “feminists against censorship” blog has still not published my comment. so i’m guessing they are pro some censorship, at least.
did any of you others leave any comments over there? i know that some of you decided not to give them any attention, but i had already left a very short comment before that even occurred to me, just asking if as “Feminists” against censorship they were intending to fight for more feminist points of view represented in the general media. what i wrote was to that effect, short and possibly clunky, and i didnt call them names or anything. but either they haven’t noticed yet (almost a week ago) a comment was left, or they have actually chosen not to publish it. i think its interesting that the FAC have chosen to moderate comments before release at all. clearly they anticipate some opposition that they would prefer to silence.
anyways, im gonna go read the rest of this thread.
Comment by v — September 12, 2006 @ 9:12 pm
The FAC, censoring?
Nah, couldn’t be, surely not?
I understood them to be – AGAINST censorship!
Comment by Stormcloud — September 12, 2006 @ 10:01 pm
May I bring your attention to the woman-hating low-life that is Avedon Carol of FAC. This is her commenting on the proposed criminalisation of possession of violent pornography:
I imagine this is all because they wimped out on banning forced marriages, something that has to do with real violence against women – virtual slavery, in fact.
So now they can pretend to be doing something “for women” with this disgusting legislation that will ruin god-knows-how-many innocent people and distract the police force from doing anything useful.
Only it won’t do anything for women and in fact will probably end up endangering more of us because the less information you can get about BDSM, the more likely you are to have accidents that result in injury or death – which is what probably happened in the case that started this whole business.
AC
Feminists Against Censorship
Comment by Nieves — September 12, 2006 @ 11:40 pm
Avedon is referring to the brutal murder of Jane Longhurst.
Comment by Nieves — September 13, 2006 @ 12:01 am
Just a bit of FYI, there seem to be a lot of BDSM-trolls floating about… co-incidence?
Comment by Stormcloud — September 13, 2006 @ 12:10 am
My goddess… that comment by Avedon is revolting. Does she know nothing about violence against women? I feel sick. I can’t believe anyone would be so deliberately callous and dismissive.
Comment by Laurelin — September 13, 2006 @ 7:11 am
I wonder if you all realise just how hateful FAC are against women. I wonder if you understand that these people are not just misguided individuals, but fully-fledged misogynists.
What is it about someone calling themselves a feminist that makes us consider them an ally no matter how blatant and virulent their woman hatred?
S O M E O N E – T E L L – M E – P L E A S E
Comment by Nieves — September 13, 2006 @ 7:34 am
I don’t consider them allies. I don’t see the point (for myself that is) in getting into arguments about whether they are or aren’t feminists, as that is yet another of their tactics to divert us from the topic in hand. Better to point out where they are wrong and where their ideas are sexist and damaging to women.
That comment Avedon Carol made about the Jane Longhurst case I would say is actually depraved – absolutely appalling. What kind of a woman defends a sadistic murderer of women?
Comment by delphyne — September 13, 2006 @ 10:08 am
I agree Delphyne, the use of the word ‘feminism’ should not distract us from recognising what someone is actually saying or doing. I find it really frustrating that we welcome misogynists with open arms, just because they call themselves feminists. I don’t even see the point in explaining why they are being sexist and anti-woman. They DON’T CARE.
For the record, Avedon runs FAC and she was representing not her own personal views, but those of the organisation. Her depraved comment reflects the ethos of FAC.
Comment by Nieves — September 13, 2006 @ 10:54 am
Avedon Carol says that Jane Longhurst wasn’t murdered. Avedon is saying that Graham Coutts is not a killer; that Jane consented to being tortured; that Graham Coutts should not be convicted of murder, because he did nothing wrong when he tortured and killed Jane; that men don’t torture and kill women out of sadistic hatred; that torturing and killing women is normal male behaviour that shouldn’t be questioned; that women enjoy being tortured and killed (why would anyone think otherwise?); that the only people to blame for Jane’s death are those of us who by fighting for women rights have limited men’s access to violent and degrading pornography – the violent and degrading pornography that would have taught Graham Coutts how to torture a woman within an inch of her life without actually killing her.
Comment by Nieves — September 13, 2006 @ 11:55 am
Nieves, a very astute observation of the subtext of FAC’s lame defence of why violent porn should exist.
delphyne said: “yet another of their tactics to divert us from the topic in hand. Better to point out where they are wrong and where their ideas are sexist and damaging to women.”
And yet I think it is even pointless to waste time and energy to point out the wrongness, i.e. engagement by troll ‘debate’ as we have seen here.
Nieves said: “the use of the word ‘feminism’ should not distract us from recognising what someone is actually saying or doing.”
Absolutely. It doesn’t even seem to be a case of ‘feminist-lite’ going on, it is MoP (mouthpiece of patriarchy) that is in play.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 13, 2006 @ 12:20 pm
That quote is horrifying. The recent upsurge in rape denial and rapist apologism from women appearing in the most popular progressive media is an alarming trend.
Comment by Sam — September 13, 2006 @ 3:32 pm
That quote is disgusting beyond words.
Comment by sparklematrix — September 13, 2006 @ 3:38 pm
P.S Can’t wait to hear the FAC/Object debate at Ladyfest next week. Tempted to use ear-plugs to tell you the truth. I’ll probably get carried out in a straight jacket.
Comment by sparklematrix — September 13, 2006 @ 3:42 pm
I wish I could make it to Ladyfest. Please let me know how the debate goes, Sparkle.
Comment by Laurelin — September 13, 2006 @ 3:45 pm
I really like this thread because it helps cement in my mind the arguments against porn (I am not terribly good at being coherent so reading over and over again the arguments is helpful for me)
Pony do you have a blog? And Delphyne? Some people I see writing great things at different blogs but I don’t know if you have blogs yourselves.
Anyway, take care all – and keep up the excellent work, Laurelin
*hugs*
Z
Comment by Z — September 14, 2006 @ 11:17 am
I agree, this hasn’t been a ‘debate’, not in the least.
I totally disagree with Sofie on several points raised during this, well, whatever you’d call it. But the most sensible comment so far came from Hexy in #102.
The ganging up IS sickening.
Comment by Andrea — September 14, 2006 @ 9:30 pm
Andrea
I disagree. The most sensible comment came from Nieves in #155
“…the use of the word ‘feminism’ should not distract us from recognising what someone is actually saying or doing.”
As for the ‘ganging up’, if anyone goes into an opposing camp, of course they are going to get opposition. The poledancing thread at Sparkle’s had about three or four ‘pole fitness’ women, some of whom claimed to be feminists and also attended strip clubs with their husbands! In this instance, Sofie did not call for re-inforcements.
We would expect the same level of opposition if any of us anti-porn radfems went to the MoronFarmers site. I’m just not silly enough to go there. What would be the point, their porn goggles are so thick they can’t even see daylight let alone the harm done to women by porn.
I do take exception to the women who actively support vehicles that promote harm to women (ie pro-porn). Any active or vocal ally of patriarchy, is not an ally of mine, and I don’t care what label she wears.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 14, 2006 @ 11:59 pm
L & others…
I appologize, I was reading this whole series of threads and intended to post that to Sofie’s blog and posted it here by mistake. please feel free to delete it, it was not my intent to take up your space.
Comment by RenegadeEvolution — September 15, 2006 @ 7:07 am
No probs, RE.
Comment by Laurelin — September 15, 2006 @ 8:45 am
Andrea, I don’t see what has gone on in this thread as ‘ganging up’. This is an anti-porn blog, and many of my readers disagree with Sofie’s views, and have expressed their disagreement. While I don’t deny the extent to which the exchange has been heated and at times rather rude, I accept that this is due to the seriousness of what is being discussed. If I go and comment on a socialist feminist blog with my views, I can’t complain if I get called a bourgeois ‘anti-sex’ censoring whatever.
Comment by Laurelin — September 15, 2006 @ 9:06 am
I don’t have a problem with disagreement, I do have a problem with comments like #143. I don’t think such sneering mockery and rudeness is justified simply because someone happens to disagree.
It would seem I’m not the only person who found many of the exchanges above distasteful and unnecessary. But this won’t be the first time I’ve been jumped on for defending someone I thought people were being unneccessarily nasty to.
Laurelin> In that case, there doesn’t seem to be much room for any kind of discussion whatsoever when people disagree on this issue.
Considering the amount of radical feminists I have heard (justifiably) complain of the hostility encountered by sex positive feminists, this all seems rather hypocritical. Surely someone, at some point, has got to rise above it and be civil for the sake of all those women we all profess to care about so much. I can see this isn’t going to get any better, so I won’t take any further part in this ‘discussion’.
Comment by Andrea — September 15, 2006 @ 10:26 am
Sorry, that should read ‘…encountered from sex positive feminists’.
Stormcloud> I commented a few times on the Sparkle*Matrix thread you refer to, and I saw much the same talking at cross purposes and refusal to try and understand from the pro-pole people as I saw here. I don’t think nastiness is tolerable from anyone, no matter what their view point, but those women certainly did not ‘gang up’, they were on an anti-porn blog, and were argued with by plenty of women with opposing viewpoints.
Comment by Andrea — September 15, 2006 @ 10:31 am
I haven’t ‘jumped on you’, Andrea. Nor shall I.
Comment by Laurelin — September 15, 2006 @ 10:44 am
You aren’t the only one who replied to me, Laurelin.
Comment by Andrea — September 15, 2006 @ 10:46 am
point taken
Comment by Laurelin — September 15, 2006 @ 10:48 am
“If I go and comment on a socialist feminist blog with my views, I can’t complain if I get called a bourgeois ‘anti-sex’ censoring whatever.”
I’m not sure about that. I’m finding it quite funny to be lectured to about being bourgeois by people called Kit and Sofie, but then most of the more extreme leftists I’ve come across have been upper middle class. I’m a socialist, I’m a feminist but for some reason they appear to think they have the monopoly on socialism – they don’t. Feminists of any stripe shouldn’t be calling radical feminists “anti-sex” as it isn’t true and it’s a low tactic.
I do agree that you can expect disagreement if you go to a blog where people hold opposing views e.g. a radical feminist going to a pro-pornstitution blog, but I wouldn’t call that ganging up.
Comment by delphyne — September 15, 2006 @ 1:17 pm
“But this won’t be the first time I’ve been jumped on for defending someone I thought people were being unneccessarily nasty to.”
Where have you been jumped on, on this thread, Andrea? I’m not seeing it.
Comment by delphyne — September 15, 2006 @ 1:32 pm
There is a difference between observers and participants in a thread – it is the level of ‘emotional involvement’.
I can understand Nieves’ & Delphyne’s frustration at going around and around and getting no-where. Sofie did very neatly avoid several points.
Spot the difference in the following two sentences:
“I’d be [I would be] opposed to the distribution of racist or fascist material”
“I am opposed to the distribution of racist or fascist material”
The first is conditional, the second absolute.
As for ‘ganging up’, I did step back for much of the time, even though my emotional involvement in this thread remained strong.
I find it disingenuous for people to come in at the end and cry ‘foul play’ – as (any of) you could have stepped in much earlier on and come to Sofie’s defence. But none did.
And nor do I believe that we should (have to always) remain ‘nice’ to anyone that calls themselves feminist, yet speaks only patriarchy. It’s a Trojan horse, and I ain’t falling for it.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 15, 2006 @ 2:27 pm
Andrea said: “You aren’t the only one who replied to me, Laurelin.
I assume that it was #164 that offended?
Because I used the words “I disagree”?
Comment by Stormcloud — September 15, 2006 @ 2:36 pm
My point is that HexyHex up there expressed the same feelings as me about how people were being toward Sofie, and nobody argued with her feelings over this.
And no, Stormcloud, not because you used the words ‘I disagree’, but if you feel better putting words in my mouth, by all means, carry on.
And as for stepping in to defend Sofie earlier, I only discovered this whole thread yesterday, not having remote vision, so I commented as soon as I read it. Perhaps it’s disingenuous that I don’t read blogs too often.
I’m really tired of the constant hostility. And I really can’t believe someone would assume what class someone was based on their name.
Comment by Andrea — September 15, 2006 @ 4:24 pm
Seriously Andrea, where did you get jumped on? I thought Stormcloud’s response to you was respectful disagreement.
“And I really can’t believe someone would assume what class someone was based on their name.”
I don’t know any working class people called Kit or Sofie. Do you? Names are class markers whether you like it or not. Kit and Sofie are certainly happy to call us bourgeois – based on what exactly? Radical feminist arguments? Can you believe they do that? Your criticism seems to go in one direction only.
I think perhaps the next time you feel someone is getting unfair treatment maybe you could try setting an example and make the types of posts disagreeing with them (you did disagree with Sofie didn’t you?) that you think we should emulate. I’m not persuade by your uni-directional crticism aimed at radical feminists so perhaps some practical examples of how you think we ought to behave would work better.
Comment by delphyne — September 15, 2006 @ 4:38 pm
This thread has lost all meaning in the post that started it.
You cannot be a feminist (ie strive to make sure all your thoughts and actions serve to further equality between male and female genders) if you support pornography (ie depictions of sexual acts designed to turn actual human beings, especially women and gay men, into wank fodder). End of. Blah. Call yourself something else or rewrite the dictionary.
And while you’re at it, use a mirror if you need visual stimulation.
Comment by jo — September 15, 2006 @ 4:54 pm
Too many wines at lunch and too much frustration. Sorry.
Comment by jo — September 15, 2006 @ 4:58 pm
Andrea, your comment #171;
“You aren’t the only one who replied to me, Laurelin.”
as a reply to #170;
“I haven’t ‘jumped on you’, Andrea. Nor shall I.”
does not indicate:
“My point is that HexyHex up there expressed the same feelings as me about how people were being toward Sofie, and nobody argued with her feelings over this.”
It indicates that ’someone else’ had (jumped on you). I took that ’someone else’ to be my words of “I disagree” towards you. I merely asked for clarification in #176. However, you perhaps put ‘words in my mouth’ and declared it an attack.
It is unfortunate that you did not become aware of the thread in time to fully participate, however, you came in criticising about style and ‘ganging up’ – and my point is still relevant. You did not join in the topic of the discussion, nor as Delphyne says (you beat me there Delphyne!) put forward your arguments in a manner of example.
“…and nobody argued with her feelings over this.”
And I’m sorry, but feelings? I thought we were arguing viewpoints.
But here goes – I feel that pornography harms women in numerous ways (as well as men) and think that there should be regulation in place to safeguard the good of the whole community rather than allow the mega-rich porn industry to continue its selfish agenda.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 15, 2006 @ 5:46 pm
Upon another re-read, it could have been taken as Hexy’s feelings, I took it to be Sofie’s feelings.
But still, lots of talk about feelings, and none about where you stand on the regulation of porn.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 15, 2006 @ 5:50 pm
My, my, Jo!
A very tipsy anti-porn feminist *sigh* I think I’m jealous!
Comment by Stormcloud — September 15, 2006 @ 5:52 pm
Actually, Jo – #179;
Wine at lunch is good for you, I think
Seriously, though; we’ve all had this argument/discussion/difference of opinion so many times before. There’s no way that the ‘feminist = everyday women/girl’s generic bodily integrity’ faction are ever going to be able to agree with the ‘feminist = prepared to sacrifice anyone’s bodily integrity in order to keep in with the in crowd’ faction.
I don’t think anyone’s been “jumped on” here – leastways, no more than I’ve been “jumped on” for expressing radfem views on a pro-porn blog.
Seems to me that Spohie knows exactly what she’s doing here. So I agree with the squiffy jo – “Call yourself something else or rewrite the dictionary” – because feminism isn’t in the business of attempting to justify women killing or the abuse of women and children (or men, come to that).
“You cannot be a feminist (ie strive to make sure all your thoughts and actions serve to further equality between male and female genders) if you support pornography (ie depictions of sexual acts designed to turn actual human beings, especially women and gay men, into wank fodder).”
Makes perfect sense to me.
Comment by witchy-woo — September 16, 2006 @ 12:27 am
Yay Witchy!
A bit of self-citation indulgence on something I said way, way, way back (#7):
“..there is no such thing as a pro-pornstitution feminist, it is an oxymoron.”
They don’t get to play in my treehouse.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 16, 2006 @ 9:44 am
I’m not going to try to engage with you on this, but a few factual corrections:
In response to “v” – The FAC blog comments are not moderated, but you have to have a Blogspot account (which is free) to comment. If you posted a comment there and it didn’t get “bloggered” (caught in some technical foul-up), it should be visible. If you still want to post it, you should try again.
I don’t know what “Pony” means by “orchestrated campaign” – If you are suggesting the porn industry had something to do with creating FAC, you are simply wrong. The corporate porn industry in Britain has always opposed relaxation of censorship, and they have certainly never supported FAC. FAC was originally founded spontaneously by long-time feminist activists and academics, people from the old Red Rag collective, the Feminist Review colective, and so on, none of whom had any ties to the porn industry.
I do not “run” FAC. We have no officers and are all just members.
Comment by Avedon — September 17, 2006 @ 10:38 am
Avedon Carol expanded her views on Jane Longhurst’s death over on Sofie’s blog. Apparently it was Jane’s fault she was killed because she didn’t “choose” (that word again!) the right partner -
“And, given the evidence in Jane Longhurst’s death, we do not know that she was “brutally” murdered – it could have been an accident. It is reasonable to suspect that if both she and her partner had been better educated about this particular activity (in which, it appears, she was interested), she would still be alive. At worst, she might have made wiser choices in partners.”
Avedon, the jury in the Jane Longhurst case did know that she was brutally murdered (your scare quotes around ‘brutally” are disgusting BTW, what could be more brutal than being strangled to death and then having your body hidden for weeks?) based on the evidence, they found the murderer guilty. His conviction was overturned on a legal technicality. He hasn’t been found innocent and he will be tried again.
Comment by delphyne — September 17, 2006 @ 4:47 pm
“Upon another re-read, it could have been taken as Hexy’s feelings, I took it to be Sofie’s feelings.
But still, lots of talk about feelings, and none about where you stand on the regulation of porn.”
I’d just discussed what Hexy had said, so yes I was talking about Hexy’s feelings.
Is there much of a difference between viewpoints and feelings?
Actually, I’m anti-porn, not that you have the right to demand my position. But I don’t support how some radical feminists go about arguing it with sex positive feminists.
Frankly, I’m sick of the constant battle over this. God help feminists who are only just dicovering the online feminist community.
Comment by Andrea — September 17, 2006 @ 6:07 pm
So,
I see many people here wish to ban violent pornography in the UK, particularly violent porn against women ( that’s not discriminatory considering that you are feminists)
THe debate over whether or not that is a sound objective aside,
How exaclty do you plan on PASSING that legislation?
Comment by Clampett — September 17, 2006 @ 6:46 pm
We don’t have to plan to pass it, Clampett. The UK government is proposing legislation as an extension to the Obscene Publications Act. They have completed a public consultation exercise and are planning on going ahead. Producing or distributing violent pornography is already an offence, this law will extend that to possession as well.
Do your own research and google “violent pornography uk government”. That will probably give you the information you require.
Comment by delphyne — September 17, 2006 @ 6:51 pm
Andrea said:
“But I don’t support how some radical feminists go about arguing it with sex positive feminists.”
There’s that ‘automatic’ assumption again,
anti-porn = anti-sex
FFS, take this fucking ’sex-positive’ rubbish out of the feminists’ vocab, pleeeezzze.
You have no idea of whether I’m straight/bi/lesbian, nor how many partners of whichever sex I have slept with.
Nor does anti-porn = prude.
Look up the (magical) dictionary under ‘not a prude’; there will be a picture of stormcloud. The people who know me in the real world would laugh their arses off at anyone who called me a prude.
Your sentence would have been more accurate as:
But I don’t support how some anti-porn feminists go about arguing it with pro-porn feminists.
Comment by Stormcloud — September 17, 2006 @ 9:16 pm
I haven’t seen Andrea getting upset about anti-porn feminists getting called Stalinists or bourgeois. Her criticism is still one-way.
Comment by delphyne — September 17, 2006 @ 11:57 pm
Andrea simply referred to pro-porn feminists as they refer to themselves. This doesn’t mean she supports or approves of this designation and its connotations.
Comment by laura — September 18, 2006 @ 2:47 pm
When did I say I was sex-positive? Frankly, Stormcloud, I don’t give a flying fuck about your sex life. Thankyou Laura for having some sense and introducing something other than blind hysteria.
Actually I wrote a rather nasty post myself some time ago about the term ’sex positive’ and it’s connotations.
I’ve also complained many times about being described as fascist etc MYSELF for being anti-porn. But it seems the fact that I am anti-porn seems to be being ignored, maybe it’s easier to be hostile towards me if you imagine I’m sex positive, eh?
And if I hadn’t been jumped on before, I certainly have now. Thankyou for proving my point for me. Feminism in the hands of women like you is doomed, you’re far too busy ignoring what I have said so you can argue with strawmen of your own making. But I suppose since Sofie left you have to find something to focus your attentions upon.
What a disgusting display.
Comment by Andrea — September 18, 2006 @ 6:46 pm
N: How low can this thread go?
Oracle: There are some dark depths still to be explored.
N: Oh, you mean we’re not near the bottom yet?
Oracle: No, my child, close your eyes.
Comment by Nieves — September 18, 2006 @ 8:17 pm
I’m closing this thread now, because it has become long and unwieldy, and I think everyone’s said what they wanted to say.
Plus I’m sick of the insinuations that I’ve done something wrong here in allowing this discussion on my blog.
Comment by Laurelin — September 18, 2006 @ 9:25 pm
[...] Anyway, too much deviation from the topic, which was delphyne. I also enjoyed her participation in Laurelin’s thread a little while back. [...]
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